Peak Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung vs. peak ROCH Gwok Jing

[goodrick]

In the book Zbt said had Wcy been still alive he would have pwnt Jinlun Fawang in 10 strokes.

That statement was clearly a huge exageration of WCYs abilities and definitely not a true statement. This can be easily proven by the fact that it took 7 days and 7 nights for WCY to win the 1st Wah battle over the LOCH greats. Jinlun Fawang was equal to the ROCH greats and it is generally believed that ROCH greats were at a higher level than LOCH greats. There is no way WCY would ever even at his peak would be able to defeat Jinlun Fawang in 10 strokes at that point when JLFW was equal to a ROCH great.

[forgot password]

Wcy's martial arts progress did not come to a halt after the 1st Huashan tourney, instead it was given a huge boost as a result of Wcy studying some techniques in the 9 yin zhen jing and Yideng's Yiyangzhi. So even though the pre-1st-Huashan-tourney Wcy might be only slightly better than the others but Wcy at his peak was at least 1 or 2 levels above teh rest.

[Ken Cheng]

Wcy's martial arts progress did not come to a halt after the 1st Huashan tourney, instead it was given a huge boost as a result of Wcy studying some techniques in the 9 yin zhen jing and Yideng's Yiyangzhi. So even though the pre-1st-Huashan-tourney Wcy might be only slightly better than the others but Wcy at his peak was at least 1 or 2 levels above teh rest.

Not a whole lot of time passed between the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and Wong Chung Yeung's death. It was probably only a year or two later.

[goodrick]

Not a whole lot of time passed between the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and Wong Chung Yeung's death. It was probably only a year or two later.

Exactly. Hence, there is ample evidence that ZBTs was just exagerating and that there is no way WCY at his peak would ever defeat JLFW at his peak in merely 10 moves.

[ChronoReverse]

This can be easily proven by the fact that it took 7 days and 7 nights for WCY to win the 1st Wah battle over the LOCH greats.

I'm of the same opinion as you (that WCY can't beat GWM in 10 stances) but keep in mind that WCY didn't spend 7 days to defeat each Great (or rather 1.75 days). They spent time discussing martial arts theory and furthermore WCY would have had to defeat each of the four Greats decisively for them to admit their inferiority to him and give up the 9 Yin manual.

For that to have happened (the Greats fully admitting their inferiority), WCY would have had to use pure martial arts with no deceptive moves to defeat each Great. Perhaps even more than one bout each until each one was satisfied that no amount of effort or trickery could defeat WCY. WCY was also at least twice the age of the Greats at that time and would've had to deal with lagging stamina.

Considering he was able to overcome all that in those 7 consecutive days, WCY's feat is quite amazing.

[tape]

WHen Ouyang Feng went crazy and beat them, they admitted that he was superior to them at least slightly. Huang Yaoshi, the most arrogant of all, admitted that he was inferior to Zhou Botong. If they're worse than him they'll admit it -- their skin isn't as thick as we think it is.

[ChronoReverse]

They were older and wiser by that time but more importantly they really wanted the 9 Yin manual. Furthermore, I don't think they have been properly tested against each other yet at this point and thus would have tried more things. I feel that the presence of 9 Yin as a prize would be a large factor in their determination.

However, that much is speculation.

Still, it's not like they fought continuously for 7 days.

[Dennis Chen]

Conversely, while Huang Yaoshi thought he had surpassed the other Greats by the time of LOCH, he never, ever thought or said that he had surpassed Wang Chongyang.

[goodrick]

Conversely, while Huang Yaoshi thought he had surpassed the other Greats by the time of LOCH, he never, ever thought or said that he had surpassed Wang Chongyang.

That is because Wang Chongyang was dead and hence a non-factor for the upcoming 2nd duel at Mt. Hua. Huang Yaoshi was only concerned about fighting the people who would be alive and present at the competition.

[Athena]

One of the biggest arguments against had always been: If Wang Chongyang really had the martial arts level of the ROCH post 16 years Greats, why would he have to use seven days to defeat them? Everyone is hammering on the seven days.
I find that argument in the Wang Chongyang debate a little weak. Firstly, we never know how the duel was held, what the exact rules were. I also find that people are thinking too two-dimensional, always believing that martial arts duels/tournaments is about winning and winning fast. True, that is most of the times the case. Especially, when we are talking about people with a lot of bad blood between them, they fight to the death. They do not care for a minute what kind of variations, stances, style, school their nemesis belong to. All they care about is how to avoid that attack and how fast they can kill their arch-enemy.

However, martial arts are not always a tool for killing. Martial arts is an art form, martial artists are sometimes practitioners of certain style or even creators of an art form. They use martial arts to meet and befriend other fellow practitioners. Like how the literati would use poems, verses, anti-thetic couplets to exchange ‘blows’ with fellow literati. The purpose is to see what kinds of insight do the other party have, what style they belong to, etc.
Many seem to forget or seem to dismiss the theoretical part of the Huashan Tournament. As I pointed out in the past, martial arts discussions are an important facet in martial arts exchange too. And certainly will not last for a few moments, I mentioned how young Hu Fei in The Outer Tales talked informally about martial arts with Qin Naizhi up a tree for a full hour. Another example in the same novel was how Hu Fei and Ji Xiaofeng were discussing martial arts for an entire morning without realizing.
Hu Fei, at that point in the story could probably defeat/kill Qin Naizhi and/or Ji Xiaofeng in less than 30 stances, but he was still genuinely impressed by their styles [八極拳] (Baiji Fist) and [華拳門] (Mount Hua Fist style). Both styles were extremely good and it was the practitioner’s proficiency and level which made them inferior to Hu Fei. Hu was still able to learn and gain insight in martial arts via their styles.
The same could be very true for the Greats, Wang Chongyang (at that time was likely to be 80+) was very much superior to the other four Greats due to him being almost 30-40 years older than them and having profounder and deeper internal strength than they did.
But stylistically speaking the other four had a lot to offer too, maybe just as much as he did.
It is also very naïve to think that the Greats only talked, in the two above named cases in the Outer Tales there were displays of martial arts. Although, Jin Yong did not go into full detail to the how and what of the displays, we can certainly envision the scenarios.
During the Fist Huashan Tournament, we had five extraordinary talents in martial arts, creators, composers, each focused on a different facet of martial arts.
East Heretic with his Divine Snap, Octagon inspired arts. West Venom with his strange but powerful Qi blasts based on an amphibious creature. South Emperor with his renowned ancestral acu-sealing technique. North Beggar with the palm techniques which are proclaimed to the best palm stances in the realm by the entire martial realm. Central Divinity with his Taoist based martial arts which were proclaimed to be the most orthodox style in the realm.
It was a meet and exchange of the greatest minds of their era, more than a match to life and death. Based on the conversations which various attending characters have on the First Tournament, it is revealed that the atmosphere during the tournament was never exceptionally violent.
The reasons why Wang Chongyang never took the other four out with ease in the tournament was mainly to see what kinds of insights these other four geniuses had in martial arts. It should be beyond any doubt that these four men were great talents even if they were about 30-40 years younger than Wang Chongyang.
The event was called [論劍] a discussion about swords (martial arts), the most important factor of the tournament was the exchange of views on martial arts and then the competition. In LOCH, Huang Yaoshi chided Huang Rong saying that martial artists with superior martial arts do not just fight the entire time. He even said that people of his caliber will certainly not degrade themselves to setting up podiums, stages and organizing fights. Although, he was referring to the concept of [比武招親], but he could also refer to ordinary fights, battles for the sake of fighting and winning.
Jin Yong in the third edition added a note which he explained that with the title [華山論劍] discussing martial arts on Huashan. Sword refers to top martial arts.
Friendly duels for the sake of martial arts usually have a very different air to it than death matches or ‘fights where everything goes.’
During the first meet these five individuals seemingly did not have any bad blood between them. There was no reason to fight to the death and why risk it when there are three more contestants standing near.
In the new edition of DGSD, Xiao Feng met five Xuan generation monks in disguise. Each of these Xuan generation monks exchanged one palm stance with Xiao Feng. Neither side seems to gain the upper hand in these exchanges. The first monk who stepped forward was reverend Xuandu, in a fight where everything goes it is even debatable whether Xuandu can withstand 30 stances with Xiao Feng.
We cannot say from that exchange that Xiao Feng equals a Xuan generation monk. Although, the exchange was much shorter than the Huashan tournament, but it shows that duels for the sake of martial arts have a different tone and result.
Additionally, we have another incident where we have two martial artists with a similar level (technique wise), but one with perhaps less the internal energy than the other due to circumstances. The other one decides to forgo internal strength and fully concentrate on techniques, battle tactics, variations, insight in martial arts. They fought for a long time these two warriors, the names of these two fighters are Yin Tianzheng and Song Yuanqiao.
Song Yuanqiao could have probably taken out Yin Tianzheng relatively fast after Yin was injured and rather exhausted. Song decided to give Yin a chance and fight on equal terms and both reached a draw. You cannot say that Song Yuanqiao is equal to a wounded and tired Yin Tianzheng based on that fight alone.
I am not saying that WCY that WCY did not use any internal energy during his fight with the others. If he just used sheer power to overcome, what is the point of holding a tournament. We have seen a number of incidents where we have one opponent (younger than the other) having less internal strength than the other and losing the fight due to lack of internal power level as the older opponent. Both parties knew fully that one of the reasons why the other one was the winner because the elder had more internal power than the younger one. The older opponent seems to even feel some embarrassment that the reason why he won was by sheer age and more internal power.

Envision a tournament set in DGSD, we have Xiao Feng inviting abbot Xuanci, Zen Master Kurong, Murong Fu and Su Xinghe to this tournament. For argument’s sake let’s make Murong Fu and Su Xinghe as strong as the former two.
Even though we know that Xiao Feng can take these four out relatively easy in a one-on-one fight for the sake of just victory and survival. In our scenario, we are talking about a sophisticated martial arts exchange tournament. Xiao Feng can always gain insight on martial arts from discussing and dueling with these four and certainly such an event would take several days to cover all the facets of martial arts.
The Shifting North Star Technique and other Murong ancestral skills (such as Canhe Finger, Murong Family Sword skills, etc) are certainly up there not inferior to any skill of any clan/family. Xiaoyao arts are elegant, stylistic and lethal. The ancestral skills of the Duan family (Six Meridian sword and Yiyang Finger) and Heavenly Dragon Monastery’s Zen Art are revered throughout the Yunnan and other parts of the martial arts world.
Shaolin’s Great Vajra Fist, Prana Palm, Demon Subduing Zen staff and Evil Subduing Kasaya* , Shaolin’s Ultimate skills have been one of the most treasured arts throughout martial arts history (*it is not confirmed in the newest editions if Xuanci knew this art, but I put here anyway).Throw in Xiao Feng with his supreme skills and let them discuss and duel for the sake of martial arts and the winner get a title of the top number one martial artist, I firmly believe that this contest will last days and Xiao Feng will emerge as the victor of this tournament. But just because the tournament lasted for days does not mean that Xiao Feng would only be marginally better than the other four contestants.
With this post I wanted to address there are different forms of envisioning Wulin tournaments. Most fights we see are filled with a violent atmosphere to enhance tension and suspense in the scene. That does not mean that every fight, battle, tournament has the same tension and violent feel to it.
The First Huashan Tournament was really a very refined, sophisticated martial event, based from bits and pieces we read about it. It must have been a very refined and cultured event with even perhaps even hint of a friendly atmosphere to it.

[goodrick]

Athena ... your post is really very insightful

But coming back to the questions in this thread .... what exactly is your conclusion?
Is Wang Chongyang at his peak superior to Guo Jing at his peak?
Would Wang Chongyang at his peak be really able to defeat Jinlun Fawang at his peak in mere 10 moves?

[Athena]

OMG ... Athena, your post is hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. LOL

Sorry for that.

[Ken Cheng]

Athena doesn't come by very often these days, so when she does, she drops a huge load.

Ugh. What a crappy metaphor!

[Athena]

I was one of the first ones that raised the possibility that Wang Chongyang prior to his death was at least as good as the ROCH Greats post 16 years.
So, Guo Jing at his peak against WCY at his peak, I would put my money on Guo Jing. It would be one spectacular battle before Guo Jing could claim victory, in my opinion.
I don't believe WCY can defeat Golden Wheel Monk within ten stances. I would say they would be around the same level. In this imaginary scenario Golden Wheel Monk against WCY, I would put my money on WCY.

Thanks Ken for those nice words. I'll just take it as a compliment, hehe.

[tape]

It would also depend on whether you believe the LOCH greats are much inferior to the ROCH greats, and how martial artists develop as a whole with regards to their peak. If you believe they keep on improving, it seems very odd that WCY can be as strong as them after 60 or so years.

Anyway, I'd like to bring up one point in that in the first edition, Hong Qigong made the remark that if he had finished mastering Dragon Palms during the Huashan tournament, then he might well have won the title. To me this suggests Wang Chongyang could not have been that much better than the Hong Qigong in present time LOCH, and thus much inferior to the ROCH greats unless Hong very badly misjudged both his progress and Wang's martial arts 20 years ago.

Though the line has been removed, I think it's more because JY didn't want Hong to be considered weak 20 years ago, rather than to keep Wang as way ahead of them. Just my impression though.

[flamer]

I see it as indication of JY wanting to keep Greats equal and WCY above.

P.S Greats like HYS, H7G, Yideng should be about the same level as WCY in his 70s or 80s when they are in their 70s and 80s. Suggesting they are 4X or even any significantly stronger is absurd.

[tape]

I'm sorry if it's absurd to you, but to tell me something is absurd when I very clearly believe that the ROCH greats are significantly stronger than Wang Chongyang is telling me I lack simple logic. It's your belief and it's fine, but hardly absurd.

[flamer]

Well, yes. For ROCH Greats in their 70s/80s to be 4X or very much better than WCY means that their talent/cultivation is vastly, that is, VASTLY surpasses WCY's. This also means that Greats as of first HuaShan are of somewhat ROCH Qiu Chuji level. That is very unbelievable.

P.S In ROCH, Qiu Chuji assessed that WCY would be able to defeat GWM, pondered about ZBT, and thought ZBT should be able to too. QCJ would have a good idea of WCY and ZBT's level and clearly thought WCY was still superior to ZBT. This is pre-16.

[Ken Cheng]

It's Jin Yong's statement about the Golden Wheel Monk doubling his inner power during the sixteen-year interlude of ROCH (and the other Greats keeping pace with him) that's causing all the trouble.

[tape]

Well, yes. For ROCH Greats in their 70s/80s to be 4X or very much better than WCY means that their talent/cultivation is vastly, that is, VASTLY surpasses WCY's. This also means that Greats as of first HuaShan are of somewhat ROCH Qiu Chuji level. That is very unbelievable.

P.S In ROCH, Qiu Chuji assessed that WCY would be able to defeat GWM, pondered about ZBT, and thought ZBT should be able to too. QCJ would have a good idea of WCY and ZBT's level and clearly thought WCY was still superior to ZBT. This is pre-16.

I don't claim 4x, but I claim significant as in possibly 50-60% better. Don't quote me on the numbers though just refuting 4x. We all agree 50-60% better is vastly surpassing anyway.

I brought it up before that Huang Yaoshi told Yang Guo his inner strength level was close to that of Yang Guo's at 20 pre-HIS while he was 30, which wasn't many years until the Huashan tournament. They WERE pretty weak internally if that statement is correct.

Frankly I don't trust Qiu Chuji's assessment, because he is probably a bit clouded by his respect for his teacher, and mainly because his martial arts is just too low. When he saw his teacher in action, he literally would not be able to even see his teacher move because his martial arts are so weak. Huang Yaoshi was almost a blur to him, and he can hardly block a blow or two; and this is 20 years later where Qiu Chuji made dramatic progress and most likely improved two or three fold. He cannot judge Wang Chongyang's abilities.

If I fight someone 20x better than me, then fight someone 15x better than me, then fight someone 10x better than me I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at all unless I saw them fight each other. And this is his memory from like 50 years ago.