Peak Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung vs. peak ROCH Gwok Jing

[flamer]

50-60% better, when is this? Very end of ROCH?

[tape]

The one point I tell you not to quote me on since I told you it was offhand at the moment, you ask about and ignore the rest of the points.

[flamer]

What....? I wasn't asking specifically 50-60%, rather I was asking at which point do you think Greats surpassed WCY. The peak of other Greats.

I replied to your HYS/YG situation in an older thread. Was YG's internal weak then? I have my doubts and we never seemed to agree on this.

If you decide to disregard Qiu Chuji's assessment, there's nothing much I can say right?

[Athena]

Back to the point of Huang Yaoshi at the age of 30 being of similar level as Yang Guo at the age 20: It is not that 30 year old Huang Yaoshi's internal strength is a bit better than Yang Guo. Huang never said the above, he was commenting on a feat produced by a 20 year old Yang Guo.
This was one of the few things Hank (Hanky Panky) and I ever agreed upon in the past.
The reason why that roar of Yang was so powerful was because of Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi used his internal energy to help Yang recover a day earlier, however Yang Guo had Ancient Tomb and Jiuyin energy stored in him. Adding the different style of internal power of Huang Yaoshi, his body needed to vent out everything.
Yang Guo at the age of 20 something is definitely not capable of producing 'Great' roars all the time.
The abundant powerful energy of East Heretic, the Ancient Tomb stored energy (because of the Ice bed) and the Taoist fluent Jiu Yin. Result is a roar that can only be produced by someone like a Great.
Huang Yaoshi's comment was how is it possible that this child is able to do such a feat at his age. What kind of strange encounter(s) did he have? Huang, himself, was only capable of doing such a thing (a roar of a Great) when he was 30.
At the age of 30, Huang Yaoshi was capable of producing roars that were extremely powerful, meaning he (and the other greats) was (were) certainly not weak as you put it.

As an example of taking a lot of time to bridge a gap between experts (or still not being able to bridge that gap). In HSDS Yuanzhen said that after 30 to 40 years, he believed that he would not still not be a match against Yang Dingtian. Yang had been dead for 30 something years and Yuanzhen after an extra 30-40 years training at Shaolin (accessing Shaolin Jiuyang and some other arts) felt he might not be a match against the Yang Dingtian of then. Yuanzhen was a very talented and intelligent man, but even he could not bridge the gap between himself and Yang.

There is no absolute truth in this Wang Chongyang debate, unless Jin Yong writes some sort of supplement indicating the true level of Central Divinity a lot of it comes down to guesswork. For me, the ‘evidence’ which lead to believe that WCY equals ROCH post 16 years Greats is:
- Central Divinity’s talents in martial arts are not inferior to any of the other four Greats. In fact, it is suggested that his talent even surpassed the others. The surviving Greats (Yideng and Huang Yaoshi) have all reached the full potential in martial arts at the end of ROCH. WCY, who should have lived well up to his eighties judging by his life achievements, merits and actions, must have reached his full potential to in martial arts. For me it is inconceivable for a man who is as at least as talented as the other artists being unable to reach the same level as the other virtuosos did at the end of their lives.
- The thoughts of the Five Quanzhen Masters were the inspiration for me to look for clues to back up the idea: WCY = post 16 year Greats. By this time, we already know the full details of why people either believe this comment or doubt it. For me, that comment is good enough for me. I buy it, I trust the Five Masters of being capable of making a clear martial arts assessment about their deceased teacher. Their assessment on Zhou Botong was correct (not being able to handle the combined forces of the Golden Wheel Monk and the other 3 experts hired by the Mongolian empire.
- After two revisions, Jin Yong eliminated almost all the traces of evidence to point out that the other Greats have surpassed him. After saying that, he did not add any new lines to point out what his level was compared to other people. I do not need to have ‘in-your-face’ direct evidence. Jin Yong never directly elaborated how powerful Huang Shang and Dugu Qiubai are, there were very indirect hints to deduce the levels of these mysterious people. Like some other people already said in the past, Jin Yong most likely always intended Central Divinity to be at the top with the old and the new people. He probably also did not bother with wuxia mathematics, something most of us (including me) are quite obsessed with from time to time. If we can believe that Dugu Qiubai, Huang Shang are a notch better than the Greats, based on limited proof but with a lot of author’s intent. Why can’t we buy that WCY could be at the level of the Greats post 16 years? Like I said before, in the third edition, Jin Yong did raise WCY’s martial arts status of superiority by adding an extra minor adjective or relative clause here and there.
These were also some of the points which Laviathan raised too, he was also one of the earlier people who raised the WCY possibility

[tape]

I can agree with all your points and am halfway converted to your thinking, maybe more than halfway .

The only point I disagree on is trusting the 5 Quanzhen masters' opinions on Wang Chongyang's martial arts level. They first saw him in action when they were little puppies in the martial arts sense, and not very powerful at all. I don't think they could possibly understand how powerful he was, outside of seeing raw feats of strength and power that could be compared objectively. (i.e. master lifted 5000 pounds I see Huang struggling with 4000 pounds). But this is only a small factor in overall martial arts, as they, like the Four Playfellows of Plum Manor watching Linghu Chong and Ren Woxing duel, cannot possibly understand the complexities of sword strokes and palm variations at their age to accurately assess their master.

[PJ]

Honestly, based on all the feats, and in Jin Yong's MIND, I don't think the Greats improved that much between LOCH and ROCH, even though Jin Yong says they did on several occasions. They were so established and legendary in LOCH already, and there's no feat in ROCH indicating they'd improved greatly. All of the fancy descriptions of their feats in ROCH were already used to describe them in LOCH, giving reader the impression that LOCH Greats is as good as ROCH Greats.

I agree with Ken that the narrator's remark about GWM doubling his internal energy on TWO occasions is what's throwing many off base. And frankly, although it may make sense logically, it's not supported by actual feats.

[flamer]

(or if you think ROCH Greats is weaker than LOCH Greats which is, frankly, contrary to numerous statements by the narrator).

That will also be ignoring numerous statements by the narrator regarding age and decreased ability. What is the balance between old age (精力) and martial arts improvement?

[tape]

That's pretty much exactly how I view it too. It seemed clear to me that Wang was only marginally better than the LOCH greats, but the LOCH greats have definitely improved a lot until or even to the end of ROCH depending on how you feel about age. Wang simply can't fit both criteria of marginally better in LOCH and still better in ROCH.

This issue should just be rendered into a continuity error like in some comics have, and this topic can never be discussed again!

[tape]

That will also be ignoring numerous statements by the narrator regarding age and decreased ability. What is the balance between old age (精力) and martial arts improvement?

Old age has a negative effect on martial artists, but it seems implied that the inner power gain and refinement in nature make them better overall martial artists. Of course they can't run across China anymore, or exchange thousands of stances, but they might now be able to win a fight faster with more sophisticated energy manipulation or more efficient force.

[Trien Chieu]

It seemed clear to me that Wang was only marginally better than the LOCH greats, but the LOCH greats have definitely improved a lot until or even to the end of ROCH depending on how you feel about age. Wang simply can't fit both criteria of marginally better in LOCH and still better in ROCH.

Agree.
I think Gwok Jing is a marginally better than Wong Chung Yeung but it would definitely not easy for Gwok Jing to beat WCY. If they had a death match, I would bet Gwok Jing is the winner but end up with lot of injuries. Anyway, WCY is an idiot. Who in the world would leave a beauty like Lam Chiu Ying, someone he loves? He could have married her and continue practicing his martial art just like Wong Yerk Si or Gwok Jing.

[Ken Cheng]

Agree.
I think Gwok Jing is a marginally better than Wong Chung Yeung but it would definitely not easy for Gwok Jing to beat WCY. If they had a death match, I would bet Gwok Jing is the winner in the end up with lot of injuries. Anyway, WCY is an idiot. Who in the world would leave a beauty like Lam Chiu Ying, someone he loves? He could have married her and continue practicing his martial art just like Wong Yerk Si or Gwok Jing.

Actually, given Lam Chiu Ying's very evident personality defects, Wong Chung Yeung probably made the right decision, even if he did have regrets. Lam Chiu Ying has always stricken me as an extremely egotistical b*tch (there are more polite ways to put it, but none more apt) who'd be VERY hard to get along with over the long run.

Frankly, had Lam Chiu Ying not been such an egotistical b*tch, she would have probably have gotten Wong Chung Yeung in the long run.

[Dennis Chen]

Let's be fair, WCY was just as much of an egotistical a-hole.

[Ken Cheng]

Let's be fair, WCY was just as much of an egotistical a-hole.

It's less apparent on him. She was the one who started it, after all.

It had been going relatively all right...they were discussing their mutual frustrations over their failure to defeat the Jin army and then, PMS hits Lam Chiu Ying and the whole discussion goes south.

[pannonian]

It's less apparent on him. She was the one who started it, after all.

It had been going relatively all right...they were discussing their mutual frustrations over their failure to defeat the Jin army and then, PMS hits Lam Chiu Ying and the whole discussion goes south.

Lin Chaoying never got the opportunity for obvious reasons, but Wang Chongyang continued the quarrel even after her death, spitefully pointing out to the Ancient Tomb disciples on the point of their deaths that Wang Chongyang was superior to their founder. Ironically, in seemingly successfully continuing the game of one-upmanship, he proved that he missed the point of the Ancient Tomb arts after all. In comparison, Yang Guo better understood and resolved the complexities of the situation.

[goodrick]

Wow ... after reading all these contradictions flying around left, right and center and reading all these logical arguments conflicting each other, the only real conclusion that I can truly draw is that there are some serious flaws in Jin Yong's writing and his portrayal of the martial arts abilities of various fighters.

[flamer]

Actually the Wang Chongyang debate can be answered if we do not assumed ROCH Greats to be on a much higher level (if at all) than LOCH Greats. This makes sense on a number of levels:

1) Characters' improvement and peak of martial arts moves relative to their OWN age, instead of progression of the story.

2) Being significantly stronger than First Huashan Greats is quite demeaning. Especially not 2x or 4x.

3) Old age logically should decrease someone's ability. That is why OYF took a week to recover from GJ's strike while GJ recovered in hours. Zhang Wuji thought Z3F's age might be a risk should he help ZWJ in fighting Du Monk but he didn't think "Grandmaster's martial arts is so refined that we will take them down so quickly". Things like that.

The only issue is statements in ROCH saying Greats improved their martial arts. The question is by how much and what effect old age has on overall fighting ability.

[Athena]

In LOCH, there isn't much information on the level of Wang Chongyang at all. I have searched and I couldn't find anything very deducing. And believe me, I have searched with a fine-toothed comb. Even the little bits in LOCH, in my opinion did not point to only marginally better than the other Greats.
There were more indiciations on WCY's martial arts in ROCH. Both novels were written by the same author, therefore both sources, in my opinion, are canonical.
If book 1 offers only limited info but book 2 offers a little more information, shouldn't we take all of it into account?
In LOCH, the only comments regarding WCY and his martial arts in LOCH were very few. There was the seven days of competing. I have addressed that point that the Huashan tournament wasn’t a death match. Like Jin Yong commented it was a martial arts exchange, discussion, and tournament.
The other time was Zhou Botong’s comment. I thought the value of that comment was just as unreliable as Zhou Botong’s remark in ROCH with the ten stances.
The third time was Ouyang Feng snide remark hoping Huang Yaoshi would flush Zhou Botong out on his behalf. That remark is even more unreliable than Zhou Botong’s.
The fourth time was indirect remark by Yideng that all of them were tired after the fight and had to take Huang Yaoshi’s pills. It was more a remark on the medicinal effects of the pills more than anything else. Like what Laviathan wrote that of course an old Taoist priest in his eighties would feel tired after days up on a mountain engaging in both mental and physical challenges.
The final time was when Huang Yaoshi was fighting the Six Masters of Quanzhen just before the Mid-Autumn Festival. He attacked Sun Bu’er with a spectacular stance of ‘Tao Hua Luo Ying Zhang’. The comment that even if Hong Qigong has recovered or WCY was resurrected, they had to avoid that stance head on. There are so many instances of weaker opponents impressing more powerful experts with a special stance or even forcing them to back away.
In LOCH after learning one of the Dragon Subduing Palm Guo Jing could force Liang Ziweng to keep a distance. Guo Jing at that time was far and far from Liang Ziweng’s match. In HSDS, Zhang Wuji was competing internal energy with the 3 Persian Emissaries, their combined yin energy was able to project itself into attack piercing the Jiuyang shield. That had very little to do with Wuji’s martial arts incompetence, but just pure martial arts.
Yuanzhen avoided blocking Xie Xun’s Seven Injury Fist three times before initiating a counter-attack. Yuanzhen was said to be vastly superior to Xie Xun in edition 3.
There are numerous examples throughout the novels with a lesser adversary impressing by having a unique technique. That doesn’t give evidence of WCY being slightly better than the other Greats.
The LOCH info on WCY is quite limited, even in ROCH the clues aren't that many but there are more clues than LOCH.
If we look at the LOCH info, you can’t deduce a single thing on WCY’s capabilities, except that he defeated them 25 years ago. That’s it, nothing more and nothing less. Why should we have a WCY in two universes?

Regarding the comment of the Five Masters. The difference between the four friends of Plum Manor were that the Five Masters and WCY were studying the same arts. It's easier to appreciate the style and art when you belong to the same martial arts school. Shang Baozhen in the novel the Young Flying Fox was quite weak, but when he observed his martial arts uncles in their performance of the Eight Trigrams Style, he could appreciate it much more. He wasn't dumbfounded at all. In the Sword Stained with Royal Blood, Huashan disciple Mei Jianhe was very arrogant in the beginning
After he was being scolded by his grand master, he decided to train extra hard to grasp the arts of Huashan and after months of training he began to appreciate the martial arts of his own school and began to grasp the level of his seniors.
By the end of the day, Seven Masters (Five Masters) had already trained under their teacher for at least ten years when WCY died. It takes at least ten years to fully impart your skills to your students. In martial arts there is a common saying: ‘三年小成， 十年大成。’
They were not little children, when Qiu Chuji made his appearance in LOCH, his teacher had just passed away for 2 years or so. Qiu Chuji, at the beginning of LOCH was already an established expert who had made quite a name for himself. If we go by the timeline. So, therefore near the end WCY’s death his disciples were already established martial artists and quite renowned.
If we believe Guo Jing’s assessment of Zhou Botong, when Guo met Zhou in the cave on Peach Blossom Island. This man is not inferior to my teacher (Hong Qigong) and Lord Huang, based on just a simple palm push. Guo Jing’s martial arts training up to that point was hardly impressive. A month or so with Hong Qigong and over a decade with a seven freaks, he was able to deduce that Zhou was not inferior to Hong Qigong and Huang Yaoshi, a correct assessment for a rookie.
Was is it impossible for the Seven Masters who have been in training under the teacher (a very established martial arts grand master) for many years to incapable of assessing their own teacher’s level? The thing is Masters’ second part of the assessment was correct, even though he had not seen Zhou Botong for two decades. If the second part of their assessment was incorrect, then I would have doubted their entire assessment too.

Before the war Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying were fond of each other, the seeds of love were there but not to the point of madly in love YET.
It was only after the war when both of them spend a lot of them together the love grew between them. They roamed the realm together, much like young Guo Jing and Huang Rong, and/or the post 16 year Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.
Lin loved Wang deeply and Wang loved her deeply too. Love was never an issue here. There was plenty of it. Lin Chaoying never prevented Wang to become a patriot, she never wanted to lock him up with her in the ancient tomb.
Their problem was that they never took time to understand each other, they were too busy competing with each other.
Never taking time to look into each other's souls and examine what the other party wanted.
Lin Chaoying loved Wang Chongyang, but she still wanted to prove to Wang Chongyang that she is not inferior to him. During their duels, sparring she would often pout or throw tantrums just to have an edge over Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang would often be bemused by these antics but in the long run, I can imagine that he would grow tedious of such behaviour. Wang would come up with a new stance when he was defeated by Lin Chaoying to win the next duel and she would devise a new technique to win the the subsequent duel.

Another point was that Lin Chaoying would become very angry when Wang Chongyang pretended not to see her hints of love. In the final conflict between them, Wang Chongyang first thought in order to prevent any further conflicts with her, I will defeat her and she will forsake this relationship once and for all. Because she proposed a final duel to settle it once and for all, if she lost she will never bother him again.
However, when he heard her saying that if she were to be defeated she will commit suicide, he reconsidered and decided to lose to her and marry her.
However, something went wrong then. Because although, he did not know how she was able to write in stone he suspected something was amiss.
And the next day he decided to become a Taoist priest after all. Marriage, relationship is all about trust. And before they were to get married, Lin Chaoying was already dishonest. How can a marriage work then? It is not surprising if Wang Chongyang felt disappointed and rather become a Taoist priest then step into a disastrous marriage. Wang Chongyang, himself is also to blame if he planned to give in then call off the duel. But he did not.

These two martial arts masters were good people, but they were also extremely proud. If either one of them was just a bit less stubborn and proud they could have been a wonderful couple. Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying were equally matched in almost anything, alas that was also why they never got together.
Because either one of them were practically peerless in the realm, the only one who could be their worthy opponent happened to be each other. Their mutual talents and personalities was what drew them to each other, but it was also these two traits that drove them apart from each other in the end.
I prefer Wang Chongyang over Lin Chaoying by a margin. He always treated her with respect even when they "broke up." The entire Quanzhen school always respected their neighbours, Wang Chongyang told his disciples not to disturb the Ancient Tomb people, subsequently the Seven Masters of Quanzhen warned their disciples and grand disciples about the same thing.
I don't like the part about spitting on Wang Chongyang, it really made me dislike Lin Chaoying a bit. Was that necessary? I don't burn/spit/cut up photos of my former boyfriends, that is beneath me and it shows a vicious streak. A streak that made me think:"Maybe WCY not marrying you wasn't such a bad thing after all."

[Trien Chieu]

Actually, given Lam Chiu Ying's very evident personality defects, Wong Chung Yeung probably made the right decision, even if he did have regrets. Lam Chiu Ying has always stricken me as an extremely egotistical b*tch (there are more polite ways to put it, but none more apt) who'd be VERY hard to get along with over the long run.

Frankly, had Lam Chiu Ying not been such an egotistical b*tch, she would have probably have gotten Wong Chung Yeung in the long run.

No one is perfect so does Lam Chiu Ying. If Wong Chung Yeung was willing to be like Yu Lu Qi, he would have live happily ever after with her instead of living his life full of regret.

[Ken Cheng]

No one is perfect so does Lam Chiu Ying. If Wong Chung Yeung was willing to be like Yu Lu Qi, he would have live happily ever after with her instead of living his life full of regret.

Depends on what you call "happy." I definitely couldn't be happy living with a person who was constantly scheming to one-up me. Five minutes of that crap and I'd be out of there faster than the Flash.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't like the part about spitting on Wang Chongyang, it really made me dislike Lin Chaoying a bit. Was that necessary? I don't burn/spit/cut up photos of my former boyfriends, that is beneath me and it shows a vicious streak. A streak that made me think:"Maybe not marrying you wasn't such a bad thing after all."

It was childish, petty, and completely out of keeping with a character supposedly rivaling the Greats in martial arts and overall acumen. I don't know what Jin Yong's expectations were in terms of reader/viewer reactions to the character, but I know that Lam Chiu Ying's behavior makes it impossible for me to take her seriously as a Great. The established Greats might have had their own particular personality flaws, but none came off as so petulant. Lam Chiu Ying's response to Wong Chung Yeung was the stuff of jilted junior high school girls and completely unbecoming of supposedly one of the greatest martial arts masters in the Jin Yong canon.