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Thread: Peak Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung vs. peak ROCH Gwok Jing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It was childish, petty, and completely out of keeping with a character supposedly rivaling the Greats in martial arts and overall acumen. I don't know what Jin Yong's expectations were in terms of reader/viewer reactions to the character, but I know that Lam Chiu Ying's behavior makes it impossible for me to take her seriously as a Great. The established Greats might have had their own particular personality flaws, but none came off as so petulant. Lam Chiu Ying's response to Wong Chung Yeung was the stuff of jilted junior high school girls and completely unbecoming of supposedly one of the greatest martial arts masters in the Jin Yong canon.
    What about Wang Chongyang writing in the coffin so that the Ancient Tomb disciples, when they're about to die (long after WCY and LCY were gone), would know that Wang Chongyang had the last word over Lin Chaoying? That's every bit as petulant as, and more calculatedly so than, Lin Chaoying getting her disciples to spit on his portrait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It was childish, petty, and completely out of keeping with a character supposedly rivaling the Greats in martial arts and overall acumen. I don't know what Jin Yong's expectations were in terms of reader/viewer reactions to the character, but I know that Lam Chiu Ying's behavior makes it impossible for me to take her seriously as a Great. The established Greats might have had their own particular personality flaws, but none came off as so petulant. Lam Chiu Ying's response to Wong Chung Yeung was the stuff of jilted junior high school girls and completely unbecoming of supposedly one of the greatest martial arts masters in the Jin Yong canon.
    I agree. I haven't read the book and I don't think they mentioned this scene in ROCH 2006. But I find this behavior extremely childish and unbecoming of a great!

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    Maybe we have to accept that they are just people after all, regardless of their martial arts. Whether they have great level martial arts or none at all, they are still subject to human emotions and I don't see why having great martial arts means you must be fantastic at relationships or even emotionally mature.

    We don't expect our elite athletes to be any more holy than other person. A Great parallels more to an extremely wealthy man nowadays, and it seems that more often than not, we associate negative traits such as adultery, arrogance, emotionless with them rather than put them on a pedestal in every regard. A Great is merely a person great at martial arts; we see that in Ouyang Feng all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post

    Regarding the comment of the Five Masters. The difference between the four friends of Plum Manor were that the Five Masters and WCY were studying the same arts. It's easier to appreciate the style and art when you belong to the same martial arts school. Shang Baozhen in the novel the Young Flying Fox was quite weak, but when he observed his martial arts uncles in their performance of the Eight Trigrams Style, he could appreciate it much more. He wasn't dumbfounded at all. In the Sword Stained with Royal Blood, Huashan disciple Mei Jianhe was very arrogant in the beginning
    After he was being scolded by his grand master, he decided to train extra hard to grasp the arts of Huashan and after months of training he began to appreciate the martial arts of his own school and began to grasp the level of his seniors.
    By the end of the day, Seven Masters (Five Masters) had already trained under their teacher for at least ten years when WCY died. It takes at least ten years to fully impart your skills to your students. In martial arts there is a common saying: ‘三年小成, 十年大成。’
    They were not little children, when Qiu Chuji made his appearance in LOCH, his teacher had just passed away for 2 years or so. Qiu Chuji, at the beginning of LOCH was already an established expert who had made quite a name for himself. If we go by the timeline. So, therefore near the end WCY’s death his disciples were already established martial artists and quite renowned.
    If we believe Guo Jing’s assessment of Zhou Botong, when Guo met Zhou in the cave on Peach Blossom Island. This man is not inferior to my teacher (Hong Qigong) and Lord Huang, based on just a simple palm push. Guo Jing’s martial arts training up to that point was hardly impressive. A month or so with Hong Qigong and over a decade with a seven freaks, he was able to deduce that Zhou was not inferior to Hong Qigong and Huang Yaoshi, a correct assessment for a rookie.
    Was is it impossible for the Seven Masters who have been in training under the teacher (a very established martial arts grand master) for many years to incapable of assessing their own teacher’s level? The thing is Masters’ second part of the assessment was correct, even though he had not seen Zhou Botong for two decades. If the second part of their assessment was incorrect, then I would have doubted their entire assessment too.
    Well we do have the example of Zhang Cuisan thinking Xie Xun was on a similar level to his teacher, whom he has studied under for quite some time too. I would say his martial arts is on a similar level to Qiu Chuji's, especially during the pre-LOCH times and of course Zhang Sanfeng is on a similar level to Wang Chongyang. If he can make the mistake, so can Qiu Chuji. If someone's martial arts is so far above yours, sometimes you just can't make an accurate judgment of their martial arts. You kind of know they're miles ahead of you, but you don't really know how many miles until you get closer.

    About Guo Jing being correct on his assessment, I don't mean to purposely nitpick, but there is a chance he got lucky on his assessment. He felt an extremely sophisticated and powerful push similar to what he felt I suppose from Hong, and he decided they were on a similar level. He could have just got lucky that he was correct. Like you said, some people have unique abilities that can trick other people into thinking they're of a higher level than they are. If Zhou had a really powerful and tricky push technique but was inferior in all other aspects, Guo would have made the same assessment but would have been wrong. I don't presume that I'm correct, but I don't think it's accurate to say that because he made one correct assessment, his further assessments must also be correct. We have examples of people with incorrect assessments, so it's entirely possible that with so many assessments being made, one person will get it right without having the ability to but just being lucky.

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    Wasn't Zhang Cuisan taught by his elder martial brothers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    What about Wang Chongyang writing in the coffin so that the Ancient Tomb disciples, when they're about to die (long after WCY and LCY were gone), would know that Wang Chongyang had the last word over Lin Chaoying? That's every bit as petulant as, and more calculatedly so than, Lin Chaoying getting her disciples to spit on his portrait.
    While Wong Chung Yeung wasn't perfect, by comparison, he comes out looking much better than Lam Chiu Ying because in each case, she was the one who provoked him. Not once did Wong Chung Yeung go looking for trouble with Lam Chiu Ying (although he would respond in kind when she provoked him). She was always the instigator. They were sort of a more sophisticated version of Gwok Fu and Yeung Gor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Maybe we have to accept that they are just people after all, regardless of their martial arts. Whether they have great level martial arts or none at all, they are still subject to human emotions and I don't see why having great martial arts means you must be fantastic at relationships or even emotionally mature.
    Because of the admiration that people lavish upon them, both among the other characters in the story and readers/viewers in the real world. There's not much we can do about the other characters' reactions, but as for us here on Earth Reality, I think we should approach these characters more critically rather than accept them at face value from the author. Jin Yong suggests (through the other characters) that we should unequivocally admire Lam Chiu Ying, but given what I know of her personality, I can't do this.

    I must also offer this one criticism of Jin Yong: he has a tendency to award the best martial arts to the worst people sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Wasn't Zhang Cuisan taught by his elder martial brothers?
    He was the last one to be taught by Zhang Sanfeng. The 6th and 7th were taught by the brothers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post

    I must also offer this one criticism of Jin Yong: he has a tendency to award the best martial arts to the worst people sometimes.

    I think he does a decent job of distributing martial arts to different character types. It'd be unrealistic for only the great and noble people to achieve great martial arts or only evil people to achieve them. We have the Murong Bo's and Xiao Yuanshans along with Ouyang Feng's who want revenge or are just plain unethical, but we also have the Xiao Fengs and Guo Jings who are righteous in every aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well we do have the example of Zhang Cuisan thinking Xie Xun was on a similar level to his teacher, whom he has studied under for quite some time too. I would say his martial arts is on a similar level to Qiu Chuji's, especially during the pre-LOCH times and of course Zhang Sanfeng is on a similar level to Wang Chongyang. If he can make the mistake, so can Qiu Chuji. If someone's martial arts is so far above yours, sometimes you just can't make an accurate judgment of their martial arts. You kind of know they're miles ahead of you, but you don't really know how many miles until you get closer.

    About Guo Jing being correct on his assessment, I don't mean to purposely nitpick, but there is a chance he got lucky on his assessment. He felt an extremely sophisticated and powerful push similar to what he felt I suppose from Hong, and he decided they were on a similar level. He could have just got lucky that he was correct. Like you said, some people have unique abilities that can trick other people into thinking they're of a higher level than they are. If Zhou had a really powerful and tricky push technique but was inferior in all other aspects, Guo would have made the same assessment but would have been wrong. I don't presume that I'm correct, but I don't think it's accurate to say that because he made one correct assessment, his further assessments must also be correct. We have examples of people with incorrect assessments, so it's entirely possible that with so many assessments being made, one person will get it right without having the ability to but just being lucky.
    My point is: If it were a Qiu Chuji during the early LOCH period to make that comment, of course I would doubt it very much. But we are talking about the Five Masters around the age of 70. Not mid-30 anymore. They had 40 more years of training. As I have mentioned before, we have examples of people who gain insight and appreciation on the martial arts level of their seniors, elders through time. Although, those elders may not have been around to interact with them, but those juniors gained a better knowledge of their elders' martial arts level. As the Quanzhen Masters grew and trained, their apprecation and insight for their own martial arts style and their teacher's level should become more apparent. Although, it is quite impossible for 5 people to think the EXACT same words. But all five of the Quanzhen masters basically thought the same thing, most likely in different wording.
    Would ZCS say the same thing again about Xie Xun if he met Xie Xun when he was 40 years old with 20 more years of Wudang martial arts training? I doubt it very much. He believed, after he came back from island, that Song Yuanqiao is still weaker than Xie Xun but not that far off anymore. Would that mean that he believes that Song Yuanqiao is only two levels or so weaker than his teacher, Zhang Sanfeng?
    Like what Laviathan wrote about this assessment. He wrote that there are different types of martial arts' assessments (made by various characters) in the novels. Some reflect the thoughts of that particular character to convey its own thoughts. Some were the comments of the author and some were the how the author is using characters to convey its own theory. Laviathan believed the Quanzhen Masters' to be of the latter. Especially, because all five of them thought the exact thing with the same words meant that it was a conveyed message from the author.
    My point about people having a unique technique to 'trick' people is: that martial artists have these techniques that might save them in pricky situations against a stonger opponent. Not creating illusions of being better than they are.
    To be honest, if you start second-guessing all the other assessments even when they are correct as a lucky guess. Then, there isn't much to discuss in this particular case anymore. In the end, the Quanzhen Masters made two assessments on two of their own elders, whom they haven't seen in years (in both cases). One assessment was correct, leading me to believe the first one could/should be correct too. I have addressed this comment for years now (literally years now), I don't feel like repeating everything which I wrote in the past again and again. If you don't believe it and my interpretation, so be it. No hard feelings
    Last edited by Athena; 11-07-09 at 03:19 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    I respect your opinion very much, and appreciate that you took the time to write a couple long posts to address my thoughts, that's a rare thing indeed nowadays

    If you believe that the Quanzhen masters were a vehicle for JY's words, which is a very valid way of looking at it, then I agree with you too. Thinking back on it, I guess it makes sense for Zhang Cuisan to think that of Xie Xun, to give the mystique and granduer that JY was clearly aiming to give him in the opening scene.

    For a character like Wang Chongyang, whom we all know by now, he was aiming to keep his mystique alive too, and it was his intent for him to be as powerful as them. Taking author intent into consideration, I think that if JY was asked, he would say Wang Chongyang was every bit as good as the Greats.

    But I also think that if you asked him if the pre-LOCH greats were significantly weaker than present time LOCH, then asked him if the LOCH greats were significantly weaker in ROCH, he would also answer that they were. Then if you asked him if the pre-LOCH greats were comparable to Wang Chongyang, he would say yes they were. Basically those are all the things that I think he intended, so would answer yes to them on different days, as long as he doesn't realize you're trying to get him to be inconsistent with himself. But he is very inconsistent with his intents, and if you add them up, they would be incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post

    But I also think that if you asked him if the pre-LOCH greats were significantly weaker than present time LOCH, then asked him if the LOCH greats were significantly weaker in ROCH, he would also answer that they were.
    With exception of YG/GJ, that is debatable.

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    I know it is for you. It is said explicitly that they improved a great deal between pre-LOCH and present time LOCH, then Hong Qigong thinking he improved a great deal from LOCH til ROCH. Then we have GWM being equal to GJ then doubling his inner power and still being roughly equal. I think those events are telling that there is general increase. But no point in arguing with you without a third party view, we've been through so many pages !

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    What was ALSO said (many times) was how the older Greats felt their stamina deteriorated massively.

    GWM never fought older Greats pre-16. How can the comment be made GWM=older Greats, and after 16, GWM still = older Greats? As I said before, it's really no surprise at all Yideng and HYS managed to hold on for the length they did (they fought for a precious little number of stances). It would be a surprise if GWM managed to beat Yideng in like 20 stances, despite their difference.

    As I also said before, it's a matter of the balance between "improvements to martial arts" and "stamina deteriorated greatly". Surely one cannot just claim that martial arts improvement (I doubt the level actual improvement but ignoring that point for now) more than offset the age issue. We sure did not observe that in the novel. We sure did observe the age issue being brought up in fights explaining their worse fighting ability and why ZBT was losing to YG, YD losing to GWM.

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    The thing about stamina is that it doesn't come into play until an hour into a fight like ZBT versus YG for instance (btw, isn't ZBT older than the rest of the Greats?)

    You decided to put it as ZBT losing to YG but even YG himself thought that it would've required an internal energy dual to really determine the victor. It was more that if ZBT couldn't break through YG's defense in an hour, his chances of doing so from that point on is no greater and would even be decreasing. There's no indication of how long he could have continued though and with the absence of deathblows (ZBT was certainly not trying to even hurt YG), any mistake by YG wouldn't be punished as appropriate in a real fight where one person only defends. Simply put, it was these factors that ensured that ZBT couldn't force YG to show him more of the Sad Palms.


    In any case, if the difference is as high as you seem to believe, then an hour is more than sufficient to determine the one with better martial arts. It's only when the levels are close enough that it takes a long while to determine the victor where stamina comes into play. In fact, if stamina comes into play at all, we can already say that the levels of the fighters are very close. Therefore, the only point of contention is whether GJ equaled the Greats at the point where he clashed with GWM.

    We already know GJ equaled OYF a few years before that so he can only be equal or better at this point. If he was equal, then the point stands as it is; the Greats improved as much as GWM did. If he was greater, then your point is hurt even more; the Greats would've had to improve even MORE.


    (Now H7G has less stamina than an hour at the end of LOCH, but there were mitigating factors like his recent recovery from the injuries. It was clearly stated that he used up energy faster because of that)
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 11-06-09 at 09:17 PM.

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    However, also note YANG GUO was also not trying to kill or use deathblows on ZBT. So it's mutual. We readers should be able to judge, the outcome of ZBT vs YG is a victory for YG, with Sad Palms and ZBT's decreased stamina. Difference between ZBT and YG is less than HYS/YD on YG/GWM. After all, they did admit ZBT was better. Also may I add ZBT felt tired after 1 hour, 1 hour, is it imaginable in LOCH standards? Those Great fights go on for ages.

    (With OYF's palm injury with GJ, it was obvious what took him that long to recover.)

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    That's not the point. YG was purely defending but could also be certain that anything that slipped through wouldn't be that serious. This is not possible if the opponent is close to your level and had the intent to kill.

    As for how long fights went, keep this in mind. The longest a fight could have gone on for the 1st Huashan tournament about days (7/4). Of course, this is absurd since they had to sleep, eat, and discuss martial arts. 6-8 hours is the longest reasonable amount of time and was sufficient to determine who was better.

    Fights only take a long time when the skill level is both high and near-equal. Fights only take forever if the same fighters are trying to kill each other (OYF vs H7G in ROCH).





    After all, they did admit ZBT was better.
    This was back in the days of LOCH and also when ZBT used L/R. In ROCH, they only admitted that ZBT's spirit was better.

    Keep in mind that YG was at a loss with how to deal with ZBT when faced with L/R the first time. YG may have found a way to deal with it later when he was purely defending (although it's not explicitly mentioned) but the ground he lost in the original fight may have been decisive had they not paused.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 11-06-09 at 09:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    . Also may I add ZBT felt tired after 1 hour, 1 hour, is it imaginable in LOCH standards? Those Great fights go on for ages.

    (With OYF's palm injury with GJ, it was obvious what took him that long to recover.)
    These two points I don't think anyone contends with you at all. Stamina DOES decrease, and recoveries WILL take longer to recover the older you get. Those are not debatable.

    However, those two factors are not extremely important unless the two people are similar in level. Please name a fight where someone who was not on a very similar level was able to fight someone for an hour, but is in actuality noticeably weaker. In the Yideng versus GWM fight, he actively fought back and fired finger blasts. He wasn't just defending. In the Yang Guo vs ZBT fight, he fought back but could not win either.

    The best example I can think of is Guo Jing being able to take 100+ stances of Huang Yaoshi, and he was purely defending, and estimated to be about 70% of their power. I don't know how long it takes for 100 stances to pass, but considering there's many descriptions where they say that in the blink of an eye, they've already exchanged several stances, it doesn't seem like it can take much longer than half an hour.

    So if it a 70% fighter can only defend for 20-30 minutes, someone who can not only defend but also actively attack back, but for over an hour, it seems like they are at the very least 90% no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    6-8 hours is the longest reasonable amount of time and was sufficient to determine who was better.

    Fights only take a long time when the skill level is both high and near-equal. Fights only take forever if the same fighters are trying to kill each other (OYF vs H7G in ROCH).

    This was back in the days of LOCH and also when ZBT used L/R. In ROCH, they only admitted that ZBT's spirit was better.

    Keep in mind that YG was at a loss with how to deal with ZBT when faced with L/R the first time. YG may have found a way to deal with it later when he was purely defending (although it's not explicitly mentioned) but the ground he lost in the original fight may have been decisive had they not paused.
    It's not the length of fight that mattered but how soon ZBT felt tired. 1 hour was very soon. Actually it was the 3rd Huashan at the end of ROCH that HYS/YD admitted that ZBT was better. YG was at a loss for L/R because he did not use Sad Palms.
    Last edited by flamer; 11-06-09 at 10:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    These two points I don't think anyone contends with you at all. Stamina DOES decrease, and recoveries WILL take longer to recover the older you get. Those are not debatable.

    However, those two factors are not extremely important unless the two people are similar in level. Please name a fight where someone who was not on a very similar level was able to fight someone for an hour, but is in actuality noticeably weaker. In the Yideng versus GWM fight, he actively fought back and fired finger blasts. He wasn't just defending. In the Yang Guo vs ZBT fight, he fought back but could not win either.

    The best example I can think of is Guo Jing being able to take 100+ stances of Huang Yaoshi, and he was purely defending, and estimated to be about 70% of their power. I don't know how long it takes for 100 stances to pass, but considering there's many descriptions where they say that in the blink of an eye, they've already exchanged several stances, it doesn't seem like it can take much longer than half an hour.

    So if it a 70% fighter can only defend for 20-30 minutes, someone who can not only defend but also actively attack back, but for over an hour, it seems like they are at the very least 90% no?
    YD fought for a precious little time with GWM, dozens of stances I think. An example? Huang Rong vs OYF. Surely that gap is much much greater than YD/GWM.

    First you have to show me how long it took for GJ to block 100 stances, then tell me how fast ZBT/YG attacked each other, on top of assuming they fought with the same ferocity, then you have a point. There is no such information from the novel. Surely 100 stances of Taiji takes a lot longer than Dugu 9 Jian. Either compare time with time, or stances with stances.

    I'm not sure who you are referring to with your 90% example. Zhou Botong and Yang Guo?

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