Peak Huang Rong vs. Peak Xiao Longnu?

[goodrick]

This is similar to a few threads earlier comparing martial artists. Who is the more superior? Huang Rong at her peak or Xiao Longnu at her peak. Who is the best female martial artist from ROCH era?

[Ken Cheng]

By the end of ROCH, Little Dragon Girl has better martial arts skills straight up, but Wong Yung will outwit her seven ways to Sunday.

[pannonian]

By the end of ROCH, Little Dragon Girl has better martial arts skills straight up, but Wong Yung will outwit her seven ways to Sunday.

Peak Xiao Longnu would be her at Chongyang palace before she was distracted by Yang Guo and got hit by the Quanzhen 5 and the Golden Wheel Monk combined. A Zhu-esque plot shield that she didn't get squished instantly. Before that, she got the better of the fight with GWM (he admittedly chose the worst possible tactic against her), the 3 Mongolians mercs, the Quanzhen 5, and an an assortment of other Quanzhen disciples, all by herself. Possibly the awesomest fighting scene in the Trilogy, and almost certainly unfilmable as described in the text.

[kyss of the sword]

HR's intelligence is unmatched but XLN had advanced beyond her with mutual hands combat maiden purity skills. HR couldn't match up.

[goodrick]

HR's intelligence is unmatched but XLN had advanced beyond her with mutual hands combat maiden purity skills. HR couldn't match up.

I'm not sure. Let us not forget Huang Rong is highly witty and skilled with the Dog Beating Stick technique which is also a superior art. I think this would be close. Also Huang Rong easily beat Limochu who is the senior of Xiao Longnu

[IcyFox]

On 1 hand you say:

By the end of ROCH, Little Dragon Girl has better martial arts skills straight up, but Wong Yung will outwit her seven ways to Sunday.

On the other hand you say:

It's not as one-sided as you guys might think. Lam Chiu Ying was equal to Wong Chung Yeung from a time long before the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. As our other discussions have indicated, many believe that Greats-level fighters from the end of ROCH (which does not include Wong Yung, but she's close enough) might have already long surpassed the level that Wong Chung Yeung and Lam Chiu Ying were at when they were young. In Lam Chiu Ying's case, she died young, and thus might not have progressed to a level that the ROCH-era Greats finally reached.

Moreover, Wong Yung was one of the few people in wulin fully versed in the 9 Yum Jen Ging, and although Lam Chiu Ying was likely a better all-around martial artist, the black star of her own Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts would give her some trouble.

So you are implying that since HR might prove a match for LCY, and since XLN is better than HR,
then XLN >> LCY.

Is that what you're trying to say?

[pannonian]

I'm not sure. Let us not forget Huang Rong is highly witty and skilled with the Dog Beating Stick technique which is also a superior art. I think this would be close. Also Huang Rong easily beat Limochu who is the senior of Xiao Longnu

From chapter 26:

Qiu Chuji and others now turned around and were observing the battle
between Xiao Longnu, the Imperial Priest and others. After observing for
a few moments, they looked at each other and looked very sad and
depressed. They thought: “In vain.....everything was in vain. We never
thought that the martial arts of the Ancient Tomb School would be this
magnificent. We can never defeat her in this lifetime.”

The martial arts previously displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were
the blueprints for their ponderings and contemplation. But the
incredible, fantastic swordplay of Xiao Longnu was too awesome. They
could not even see what those stances were, so how could they think of a
way to counter it?

The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial
arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible
for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now.

Qiu Chuji and others thought: “If our late Master were still alive he
would surely be superior to them; our Martial Uncle Zhou is probably
also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts.
Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are
high that even he will suffer defeat.”

[WuxiaMaster]

XLN is near great LV after learning Left Right Technique. Right up there. Hmm... Think LOCH Greats.

[pannonian]

XLN is near great LV after learning Left Right Technique. Right up there. Hmm... Think LOCH Greats.

I'd put her a notch below end of LOCH Guo Jing. Able to hold her own for a while against pretty hefty opposition, and even hurt them if they don't fight properly, and way above the likes of Qiu Chuji and the other sub-Greats. I don't think Huang Rong ever got near this level.

[Ken Cheng]

So you are implying that since HR might prove a match for LCY, and since XLN is better than HR,
then XLN >> LCY.

Is that what you're trying to say?

While it's not what I'm *trying* to say, it's quite possible that that is true. Little Dragon Girl had mastered the Ancient Tomb Sect's martial arts, and then incorporated Chow Bak Tung's Left/Right Hand Technique so that she could use the Double Sword Technique in a way that Lam Chiu Ying never envisioned. Little Dragon Girl was a bit deficient (most likely) in inner power compared to Lam Chiu Ying, but her other abilities might make her a match (or more) for the founder of her home sect.

[Banh Mi]

While it's not what I'm *trying* to say, it's quite possible that that is true. Little Dragon Girl had mastered the Ancient Tomb Sect's martial arts, and then incorporated Chow Bak Tung's Left/Right Hand Technique so that she could use the Double Sword Technique in a way that Lam Chiu Ying never envisioned. Little Dragon Girl was a bit deficient (most likely) in inner power compared to Lam Chiu Ying, but her other abilities might make her a match (or more) for the founder of her home sect.

I don't think you should place an upper limit on LCY's abilities just based on the martial arts she passed down. She might have known a lot more than what she teached, and there's a few things that suggest this.
She only taught a style she made that was a perfect and natural counter to WCY's school out of spite, while still being a sufficient style to hold its own against other styles. This could either mean her martial arts was at a level she could structure it in such a way while still keeping the essense. Or it could mean she had a profound depth of martial arts and only included as much as needed for it to be that way which would imply she was alot more powerful.
Then the ultimate technique she taught was said to just be something she came up to entertain herself, correct me if I'm wrong but Jade Maiden swords power was equal to what she had at the time not more profound, and it was inconvenient obviously not her best technique, that her students would consider that their pinnacle or achievement is a joke on them.
Overall, it looks to me like she taught everything she did as a passing fancy and poke at WCY and not to pass on all she knew. Her style was completely antagonistic of his yet unified with it when used together, and the ultimate skill she left behind was just personal to her. She forbid her students from really interacting with the outside world so she didn't really want to teach her students to be the strongest.
That Gumu style was so powerful considering all the fancy symmetry and hidden meanings she put into it is a testament to her. I think it means she was alot more powerful than that though.

[goodrick]

On 1 hand you say:



On the other hand you say:




So you are implying that since HR might prove a match for LCY, and since XLN is better than HR,
then XLN >> LCY.

Is that what you're trying to say?

IcyFox, that is a great catch!!
I definitely find a contradiction in between the two statements made.

[IcyFox]

IcyFox, that is a great catch!!
I definitely find a contradiction in between the two statements made.

Actually, it might be entirely possible that XLN > LCY, but I would think, to say that XLN >> LCY is a bit
far-fetched.

[Trien Chieu]

By the end of ROCH, Little Dragon Girl has better martial arts skills straight up, but Wong Yung will outwit her seven ways to Sunday.

In other word, even if SLN has better martial arts skills, Wong Yung still beat her if she is allowed to use tricks and traps. Simple minded like SLN is no match for witty Wong Yung.

[tp222]

XLN probably wins but Huang Rong is so much more lovable

[tape]

I think we're placing way too much emphasis on trickiness and intelligence into these fights. We're not talking about setting up a dueling area where Huang Rong can place tricks/traps ahead of time or overly using the surroundings right? We're talking about a more or less straight up duel.

Yang Guo is on a similar if not equal level to Huang Rong, and he was unable to ever deal with Li Mochou until he was actually better than her martial arts wise. Huang Rong never really beat anyone with her wit or intelligence in a fight except escaping GWM with her formation. If this craftiness or trickiness were so important, it would mean Huang Yaoshi should be able to defeat all the other Greats, or that pure martial arts wise he is weaker, but his craftiness makes him equal, which does not seem to be the case.

[IcyFox]

I think we're placing way too much emphasis on trickiness and intelligence into these fights. We're not talking about setting up a dueling area where Huang Rong can place tricks/traps ahead of time or overly using the surroundings right? We're talking about a more or less straight up duel.

Yang Guo is on a similar if not equal level to Huang Rong, and he was unable to ever deal with Li Mochou until he was actually better than her martial arts wise. Huang Rong never really beat anyone with her wit or intelligence in a fight except escaping GWM with her formation. If this craftiness or trickiness were so important, it would mean Huang Yaoshi should be able to defeat all the other Greats, or that pure martial arts wise he is weaker, but his craftiness makes him equal, which does not seem to be the case.

Actually HR was quite creative in getting out of sticky situations - like in LoCH when she squashed OyK, or like in RoCH when she served hot tea on Huo Du, used a broken sword as a bullet-proof vest against QQC etc. HR is kinda like the MacGyver of Wuxia. LOL

So I guess it depends on whether XLN is fast enough or not. XLN won't get distracted by HR's trash-talk, that's for sure; as long as she can move faster than HR can think, she should win.

[tape]

None of those feats was a duel in martial arts though. Sure she has tricks for situations, but there's not much you can do when you're just fighting with the other person and they just attack you relentlessly with their swords. Maybe she can scream Yang Guo just died or something, but that's hardly fair. People can only be tricked if they give you an opportunity to trick them; Ouyang Ke chasing her around a mountain, Huo Du standing around being arrogant, QQC agreeing to something that should clearly not be possible. If you're just going to fight her with the XLN attitude of, "if I lose I lose, what does it matter?" It's gonna be hard to pull off any tricks.