Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 153

Thread: The Gwok Fu Glorification Thread

  1. #41
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda View Post
    Ah someone who understands what i mean...

    I don't dislike Guo Xiang but i do believe had she been raised the same way as Guo Fu, she wouldn't have turned out the way she did. I found the major difference between the two sisters was a matter of pride. Guo Fu had always been prideful and had a dislike for anything 'below her status', which to her is almost everyone.

    Guo Xiang was a more humble person and given that fact she didn't have her virtues sang to her every day, she did not develop the same inane sense of self worth.

    But this type of argument is too subjective, its like arguing if we were born good or evil or were we born with a clean slate. It’s a matter of belief and will be a never ending argument. So I’ll drop this matter.

    As for:
    "For example, look at Xiao Yu Er... He was raised in E Ren Gu and he turned out fine. He was mischievious and all but besides that, he was a good person...."

    First off, i don't remember Xiao Yu Er being a self sacrificing hero either, and neither do I see the people in E Ren Gu as being evil, they were weird but I don’t recall them doing much evil deeds. Had Xiao Yu Er have to fight and kill to survive in the years he spent there, it would have made him a different person.

    “You mentioned that Guo Fu justified her mistakes, how did she do that??? Can you give me some examples???Also comparing Guo Fu to the Wu brothers does not say much....”

    Most memorable would be when she chopped YG’s arm off, she justified herself by convincing herself that since YG and XLN had taken her sister to swap for YG’s medicine she was in her right to avenge her sister’s death. That doesn’t make her deeds any less wrong, but I was just pointing out her behavior.

    AS for the Wu brothers, I mentioned them because I felt they receive less hate then she does when I found them very despicable and couldn’t believe it when they nabbed those two nice girls. I felt it was more on the author’s side to pair off remaining girls that does not have a “deep relationship” with YG. What a waste!

    “I also agree with Jiang Bao that his appearance in her life did way more good for her than harm. I think you forgot all of the times that he saved her butt or else she would have been dead years ago. I think she only hates him because she is jealous of him and XLN. She could not have him and has lost to XLN.”

    I may have not been clear on my point, (I was at work…trying to hide from my boss ^_^), what I meant was that from her point of view, her life was ruined because of YG.

    Take things from her perspective, without the prejudice, she was an only child, well loved and had everyone around her telling her how good she was, then one day, her parents bring home a dirty little beggar boy, and instead of teaching her, her mother gave the boy special treatment and taught him herself, while she was taught by her father with the Wu brothers.

    YG never ‘sucked up to her’ but he was also never polite to her, YG at this stage was a very lost child and was like a wild animal, he treated everyone with disrespect and distrust, I can argue this point till I turn blue, no matter how many times I read the novel I still found him a rude kid. He was also very proud, something that stayed with him until he got his arm chopped off.

    So we have GF who is used to being treated nicely and YG a beggar boy who was in she else’s pretty worthless as he couldn’t do anything, treating her with disrespect, instant dislike.

    So YG leaves and they don’t see each other again until years later, the first time they met again, YG recognizes her but she doesn’t take notice of him since he was wearing an ugly mask and supposedly had a thing for his master.

    Next time they meet is at the Hero’s Feast and she treats him nicely, believing him to have no kung fu, she even tried helping him, at this stage I believe she did like him a bit as he was handsome and almost kind to her, although inside he was laughing. JERK!

    During the Hero’s Feast YG and XLN appeared, I do not remember any verse in the novel that stated GF was jealous of XLN’s beauty, nor of her jealousy at YG’s and XLN’s relationship. Actually, come to think of it, I don’t remember there being any mention of her liking him.

    GJ did proposed marriage and she wasn’t against it as YG was handsome, kind (if only she knew better), and currently, after defeating the priest, a hero. YG however rejected the proposal and XLN declared their relationship, to GF at this stage, not only was their relationship incestuous, but they had also publicly humiliated her.

    The next time they meet, YG and XLN saved her and her mother and the Wu brothers, she did feel grateful to them and did not say anything about their relationship, she told the Wu brothers to shut their traps.

    The next time they meet he saved them again, and although YG was hurt this time, she could not take care of him because her mother was hurt as well.

    Fast forward a lot of chapters, they meet again when YG and XLN arrived to help defend the city, GF was not rude to them, she treated them with politeness as she would have to all guest, during their stay, YG saved her father, and she was grateful to him and treated him nicely.

    When the Wu brothers fought and he told them he was engaged to GF and how close they were and how HR had taught him the beggar sect’s martial arts secretly and they told her that, in this era, saying he was engaged to her and they had a close relationship, is akin to saying they were almost like lovers. Not to mention he had also tainted her mother’s name.

    During this time, XLN also took the baby away and the pair of them lost her sister, then XLN goes to her and tells her to help take her sister to Passionless Valley to get the antidote and to be happy with YG, then she hears about XLN’s sexual encounter, you have to understand at this stage, GF did not know it was rape, from what she could make out of the conversation, XLN and the priest slept with each other and XLN was not ashamed to admit it. Given the era, she felt disgusted at the act and especially to someone like XLN who has a loving relationship to her pupil sleeps in the same room with him.

    So it all boils down to the night she chops of YG’s arm, the Wu brothers and their father had been wishing her a happy life with YG, her sister disappeared, and everybody is treating YG as the hero while to her he has been tarnishing her name and virtue.

    They had an argument, namely YG apologizing and saying it was not ill intended and he was just trying to stop the Wu brothers from fighting, he however did forbid them to see GF again if he beat them and so they kept their promise. GF grew up with the Wu brothers, and although she did not love them, she did have feelings for them as well as they are childhood friends, she was understandably pissed off.

    She goes on to repeat XLN’s words and he accuses her of lying and stealing the sword, in retaliation she mocked XLN’s sexual behavior and YG slapped her and accused her of lying. GF retaliated and fought him back, YG is much stronger then her in martial arts and had blocked her stance twice, in the third stance she was able to knock his sword away by then she was too angry to stop and cut off his arm.

    She knew right away she had made a mistake and was unable to cope with the situation, she ran for help and got GJ, YG had already left by then, and fearing GJ she was forced to leave home and hide out. Once she did return, GJ wanted to chop her arm off to pay for YG, her mother saved her and once again she was force to flee. Her mother managed to almost save GX but then YG stole her and even taunted it in front of GF.

    ...too long...i'll continue later...when its not new years. HaPPY NEW SPCNET MEMBERS!
    Well, I guess you like GF so there is not much for me to say and I am not trying to change your mind. BUt I gotta say something about Xiao Yu Er... I think you have not read the novel for JDSJ if you think those guys in the E Ren Gu were not evil. THey are evil in the novel while the TV series make it seem like they are not that bad. Also, XYE did do some heroic deeds unlike GF who has done nothing really good in her life....
    Respect other people's opinions and views. If we learn how to do that than all of these fights and arguments will not occur.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Linda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    2,286

    Default

    I believe fighting with her parents and her husband for the majority of her life to defend her country should count, don't you?

    I'm afraid I don't remember much about XYE, i found the story very boring, but I didn't get the impression that they were that evil...more like weird and unorthodox.
    Currently in love with Bae Suzy...for superficial reasons.

  3. #43
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Yes? You just made one U-turn going back to my post.
    I was saying, GX was in the company sis for quite a while after the battle at XY (both on the trip to Huashan, and afterwards at XY, before she snuck out). So she should know whether GF had changed or not. You are implying that she barely spent time with GF after the XY battle, which is just flat out wrong.

    Lucre… It’s very frustrating to debate with you guys because you don’t bother to look at material in the book. I don’t know if you just go off TV shows or just vague memories of the book. And then you guys accuse me of making baseless claims when it is you guys who are doing it. I supplied evidence from the book to support that she hadn’t changed. All I see from you guys are your opinions and a wrong reference from Guo Xiang. You THINK she’s changed, but that doesn’t make it so.

    Reminds of many yrs ago when I was debating the character of Qi Fang from Linked Cities. Some guy made fun of me for saying QF loved Wan Gui as well, wondering if I had read a totally different story and I was stupid blah blah blah. Then I pointed him to the passage in the book and he shut up. Turns out he had read the book years ago and never bothered to recheck the text. Simply going on his impression and selective memories. Gotta check the book if you are not sure. Very easy to find on the net.
    Last edited by jiang bao; 01-11-10 at 11:39 AM.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

    Jiang Bao's Karaoke Corner

  4. #44
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,367

    Default

    Guo Fu should have some of the experiences Di Yun went through. If that doesn't fix her attitude, nothing will.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    両親の家
    Posts
    631

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Lucre… It’s very frustrating to debate with you guys because you don’t bother to look at material in the book.
    I think you're taking things a little too seriously, incidentally, why did you also not point out that my views differs from TC subsequently. Are you only focused on being right? (I'm not betting with you, but I remember you wanted a bet on it. Any honorable man would have own out to his word, even if he's wrong, he is wrong)

    Well, I'll give you a chance to feel superior, please quote all the passages in the book to support your claims. I'm sure you can do it, and shut mine and Guo Xiang's mouth up.

  6. #46
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    LOL I am not pulling my hair out, if that’s what you insinuate. Come on, if you want a debate, then do some diligence and check the book (takes one minute to do, literally-google the book and go to the right chapter) and don’t accuse people of being unable to consider the other possibility if you yourself are only going on your own assumptions/faulty memories.

    Nice change of topics by the way. I guess that’s your way of admitting you are wrong about GF.

    I really don’t mean any enmity toward you or Guo Xiang. I’m just trying to set the record straight about GF.
    Last edited by jiang bao; 01-11-10 at 04:59 PM. Reason: used the wrong word. I meant to say "enmity" not "amity."
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

    Jiang Bao's Karaoke Corner

  7. #47
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,524

    Default

    Gwok Fu GLORIFICATION Thread

    I know it's hard, but *try* to stay with the program?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    両親の家
    Posts
    631

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Nice change of topics by the way. I guess that’s your way of admitting you are wrong about GF.
    actually no. if i think im wrong, i'll say so. (e.g. yes im wrong, sorry about it) i dont adopt funny methods like many people i knew who rather die than admit their mistakes; and get dogdy about it, when proven wrong. you had yet to bring on proofs apart from accusing us how ignorant we are.

    i didnt change the topic on purpose here. i just realised u have failed to honorably mention when many topics had passed and my views were not in line with TC's. "note what i said about the priest in particular, drastically different views. neither was i going all good about guo fu, merely that there is redeeming factor; if we are about to view a person as a person, than we should stop our condemnation."

    so, why didn't you try to bring up those quotations to shut us up? you knew that Lucre is possibly ignorant and wouldnt hold a candle to you if he comes to 'proper' debate isn't it?

  9. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    403

    Default Guo Fu**

    Wow, what an amazingly dysfunctional "debate". Jiang Bao xiongdi, you are a brave man to fight the good fight.

    I know this is the Guo Fu apologetics thread, but I think there's something people need to get straight. Where exactly in Yi Tian Tu Long Ji was it stated (even indirectly) that Guo Fu "sacrifices herself for the country" (as per post #1)?

    I've heard the above claim made repeatedly here and elsewhere, but to my knowledge, it has no basis in the text. Yu Daiyan mentions in Chapter 3 that Guo Jing has "defended Xiangyang to the death"; Yin Susu says in Chapter 9 that both GJ and Huang Rong died in that battle; in Chapter 27, Miejue tells Zhou Zhiruo that GJ, HR and Guo Polu lost their lives when Xiangyang fell. These are the three key passages in the novel that tell us about the ultimate fate of the Guos. Guo Fu is pointedly not mentioned.

    We could guess that she probably died when Xiangyang fell. Knowing what we do about her character, we could also surmise that that should not be attributed to her as "sacrific[ing] herself for the country". I would suggest that JY's omission of her name from the heroic record (even Guo Polu is on there!) is the final verdict in what is one of the least sympathetic and worst-written character portrayals in his major novels.

    If someone can point me to the reference to GF 'sacrificing' herself - I have the 3rd edition, if you've seen it in there - I'll admit I'm wrong. I'll even join in with the glorifying. But as it is, I respectfully submit that the idea that she "sacrifices herself for the country" is a load of dog****, and that people need to stop repeating it.
    Last edited by owbjhx; 01-11-10 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The bubblehead
    Posts
    8,571

    Default

    ****my mistake, pls delete. All apologies.
    Join us at The Mandate RPG!
    Join the Discussion thread for The Mandate RPG!
    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

  11. #51
    Senior Member Linda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    2,286

    Default

    I don't remember saying she sacrifice herself for her country, i mentioned the fact that she did help defend her country for the majority of her life should count.

    Take it in this sense, are the soldiers who died in battle more worthy of our admiration then those who spend their whole lives defending, going through battles and such but lived?

    The reference to the Guo's omitting GF does not mean that she didn't die during that battle, simply because LC had over looked her character, also that of her husband who without a doubt could be considered a hero, does that mean then both her an her husband survived and is thus less 'heroic' than the Guo's who died?

    YG, we were led to believe live a life of seclusion with XLN for the remainder of their lives, is he thus more heroic than GF's husband? Although he didn't join the end battle and went off to live happily ever after?

    Since, he was also omitted from being reference in the end battle, then it is assumed he never returned.

    An omission means nothing.
    Currently in love with Bae Suzy...for superficial reasons.

  12. #52
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,367

    Default

    i mentioned the fact that she did help defend her country for the majority of her life should count.
    What exactly did/could she do to 'help'?

    Knowing what we know about Guo Fu (that she is cruel, heartless, and causes all kinds of problems for those around her), it's more likely that she was counterproductive and contributed more to the demise of the Song army than any 'help' she might have given. For example, in a typical Guo Fu scenario, she might cut off a soldier's hand because he didn't say the right thing to her, when in fact the soldier was on duty to report an important message, which just got delayed because of Guo Fu's stupidity.

    If I were in the Song army, I wouldn't want Guo Fu's help.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #53
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The bubblehead
    Posts
    8,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    What exactly did/could she do to 'help'?

    Knowing what we know about Guo Fu (that she is cruel, heartless, and causes all kinds of problems for those around her), it's more likely that she was counterproductive and contributed more to the demise of the Song army than any 'help' she might have given. For example, in a typical Guo Fu scenario, she might cut off a soldier's hand because he didn't say the right thing to her, when in fact the soldier was on duty to report an important message, which just got delayed because of Guo Fu's stupidity.

    If I were in the Song army, I wouldn't want Guo Fu's help.
    This is so mean it's funny.
    Join us at The Mandate RPG!
    Join the Discussion thread for The Mandate RPG!
    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

  14. #54
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    両親の家
    Posts
    631

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    This is so mean it's funny.
    no offence, but our human world is mostly runned by idiots. surely Guo Fu would be 'welcomed' ~ by virtue of not being particularly bright?

  15. #55
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Somewhere Out There
    Posts
    13,110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    What exactly did/could she do to 'help'?

    Knowing what we know about Guo Fu (that she is cruel, heartless, and causes all kinds of problems for those around her), it's more likely that she was counterproductive and contributed more to the demise of the Song army than any 'help' she might have given. For example, in a typical Guo Fu scenario, she might cut off a soldier's hand because he didn't say the right thing to her, when in fact the soldier was on duty to report an important message, which just got delayed because of Guo Fu's stupidity.

    If I were in the Song army, I wouldn't want Guo Fu's help.
    By the end of ROCH, hasn't she mellowed down a bit?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  16. #56
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    By the end of ROCH, hasn't she mellowed down a bit?
    There was ONE moment where she was caught in self reflection, but that doesn't mean she was good from that moment on. There's an old saying in Chinese: "a dog can't change its diet" (the original words are a bit filthier). I'd add "easily" to the end of that. Personality doesn't change as easily as people would like.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  17. #57
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    両親の家
    Posts
    631

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    There was ONE moment where she was caught in self reflection, but that doesn't mean she was good from that moment on. There's an old saying in Chinese: "a dog can't change its diet" (the original words are a bit filthier). I'd add "easily" to the end of that. Personality doesn't change as easily as people would like.
    If human personality is difficult to change, then human biasness is even more so. Very often we caught ourselves held on to very outdated views of others even though they have changed.

    Maybe she hasnt change and is still a brat, or maybe she has changed, but is still a brat, a different kind ~ but human perspective and stubborness was more often than not, even harder to change. so the likelihood of everyone seeing her as the same brat from donkey years ago is alot higher too.

  18. #58
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    If human personality is difficult to change, then human biasness is even more so. Very often we caught ourselves held on to very outdated views of others even though they have changed.

    Maybe she hasnt change and is still a brat, or maybe she has changed, but is still a brat, a different kind ~ but human perspective and stubborness was more often than not, even harder to change. so the likelihood of everyone seeing her as the same brat from donkey years ago is alot higher too.
    Very good observation, Lucre. I agree with your point.

    Yes, it could go either way based on random chance. However, when considering that Jin Yong left out Guo Fu's name--on 3 occasions--when mentioning Guo family's heroism in HSDS, it's fair to assume Guo Fu was not worthy of being mentioned in the same capacity as his brother and their parents, thus revealing the likelihood that she didn't turn her character around fully (she might have tried but failed--which would have been a tragic story in its own right--but we don't know).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #59
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    3,478

    Default

    Oh PJ, your statements are so mean, but so laugh out loud funny!

    I love this line:
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    (she might have tried but failed--which would have been a tragic story in its own right--but we don't know).

  20. #60
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,521

    Default

    She did marry a nice and great husband so maybe he influenced her in a "good"way??
    Respect other people's opinions and views. If we learn how to do that than all of these fights and arguments will not occur.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 53
    Last Post: 05-23-14, 11:44 AM
  2. The Wong Yung Glorification Thread
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 10-22-10, 12:11 AM
  3. The Gwok Jing Glorification Thread
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 10-21-10, 12:54 AM
  4. The Cheung Mo Gei Glorification Thread
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 93
    Last Post: 11-27-09, 04:09 AM
  5. The Official Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing Thread
    By Ken Cheng in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: 09-22-09, 12:08 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •