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Thread: The Gwok Fu Glorification Thread

  1. #61
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    She did marry a nice and great husband so maybe he influenced her in a "good"way??
    Certainly a more desirable scenario than the opposite possibility of her influencing him!

    The fact that he married her raises question on his judgment, but since I don't know much about Yelu Qi, I'll refrain from making a judgment of my own.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #62
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Certainly a more desirable scenario than the opposite possibility of her influencing him!

    The fact that he married her raises question on his judgment, but since I don't know much about Yelu Qi, I'll refrain from making a judgment of my own.
    学好三年,学坏三日

    or another saying that makes PJ's scenario more likely

    近朱者赤,近墨者黑
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  3. #63
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Certainly a more desirable scenario than the opposite possibility of her influencing him!

    The fact that he married her raises question on his judgment, but since I don't know much about Yelu Qi, I'll refrain from making a judgment of my own.
    She's hot, and he'd been dealing with Zhou Botong's shit for too long.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    How true! In fact, since this is a book, it would be fair to say that Jin Yong wrote some things with an intention. human psyche and random occurances happened alot in reallife, but when it comes to books, there is almost always a certain theme the writer is trying to convey. ^_^ its nice to always explore the alternatives, sometimes even beyond what the author implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Very good observation, Lucre. I agree with your point.

    Yes, it could go either way based on random chance. However, when considering that Jin Yong left out Guo Fu's name--on 3 occasions--when mentioning Guo family's heroism in HSDS, it's fair to assume Guo Fu was not worthy of being mentioned in the same capacity as his brother and their parents, thus revealing the likelihood that she didn't turn her character around fully (she might have tried but failed--which would have been a tragic story in its own right--but we don't know).

  5. #65
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Athlee, you are quite a walking encyclopedia of Chinese sayings. I like it
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #66
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    all my sayings come straight from TVB, the product of my mum forcing us to have family time after dinner in front of the TV. Whatever TVB come out with, she rented and we were forced to sit through for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda
    I don't remember saying she sacrifice herself for her country, i mentioned the fact that she did help defend her country for the majority of her life should count.
    My criticism wasn't directed at your posts, but rather those that claim Guo Fu "sacrificed herself for her country" without acknowledging that such a claim is, at best, very contentious - and, at worst, utter dog****.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda
    Take it in this sense, are the soldiers who died in battle more worthy of our admiration then those who spend their whole lives defending, going through battles and such but lived?

    The reference to the Guo's omitting GF does not mean that she didn't die during that battle, simply because LC had over looked her character, also that of her husband who without a doubt could be considered a hero, does that mean then both her an her husband survived and is thus less 'heroic' than the Guo's who died?

    YG, we were led to believe live a life of seclusion with XLN for the remainder of their lives, is he thus more heroic than GF's husband? Although he didn't join the end battle and went off to live happily ever after?

    Since, he was also omitted from being reference in the end battle, then it is assumed he never returned.
    I agree with your implication, but I don't see how it's relevant, as I'm not claiming that GF didn't die at Xiangyang. I am simply pointing out that there is no information in Yi Tian Tu Long Ji confirming her ultimate fate. Maybe she died at Xiangyang; maybe she didn't. We can reasonably guess that the former is the case, but it's still just a guess, and therefore contentious.

    More to the point, even if we assume that she did die at Xiangyang, that is a proposition which is qualitatively different to the claim that she "sacrificed herself for her country". The latter implies public-spirited heroism. From what we know of her personality - sadistic, utterly self-centered, snobbish, disdainful - it is speculation to expect public-spirited heroism from her. One might as well speculate about Guo Jing developing a sudden lust for Xiaolongnu. (At least that piece of speculation is fun.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda
    An omission means nothing.
    Given that you evidently read Jinyong's novels - which I respect you for - I'm surprised that you say that. As a general statement, I completely disagree. In literary works, omission is often half the story, and JY (alongside a lot of other novelists and journalists - and even lawyers, for that matter) is not averse to using this particular trick to say or accomplish something meaningful.

  8. #68
    Senior Member tweety365's Avatar
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    I really have to applaud Linda for sticking to the topic so well. Defending GF is an arduous task I am unable to do.

    But this debate is very interesting!

  9. #69
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    actually no. if i think im wrong, i'll say so. (e.g. yes im wrong, sorry about it) i dont adopt funny methods like many people i knew who rather die than admit their mistakes; and get dogdy about it, when proven wrong. you had yet to bring on proofs apart from accusing us how ignorant we are.

    i didnt change the topic on purpose here. i just realised u have failed to honorably mention when many topics had passed and my views were not in line with TC's. "note what i said about the priest in particular, drastically different views. neither was i going all good about guo fu, merely that there is redeeming factor; if we are about to view a person as a person, than we should stop our condemnation."

    so, why didn't you try to bring up those quotations to shut us up? you knew that Lucre is possibly ignorant and wouldnt hold a candle to you if he comes to 'proper' debate isn't it?
    Of course it was a change of topic. What you brought up has nothing to do with this thread. I donít know what you are thinking, but I am not going around just looking to contrast your opinion with TCís. You are not that important. I am at work and I just go to certain threads and read certain posts. If you want to point something in your favor out, then do it yourself.

    As for the passages in the book, itís so easy to find you just have to go to ROCHís final two chapters, and see that GF was on the trip to Huanshan with GX. And go to the first two chapters of HSDS to see the GF references. With electronic versions, you just have to search for GFís name within the text. It really literally only takes a few minutes, and even shorter if you know ROCH and HSDS well. So is that really your counter-argument for GF having changed? That I didnít post the passages from the book?? LOL.

    And of course you are wrong on this issue. You may not think you are wrong, but you are. Clearly. You have not even managed to present any evidence that she had changed at all. Just read back on your last few posts. Itís basically about me not combing over threads to contrast you and TCís viewpoints and getting annoyed about how I am trying to prove that I am ďsuperior,Ē which I am not trying to do. I am simply asking you guys to shore up your position with some evidence from the book.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post

    More to the point, even if we assume that she did die at Xiangyang, that is a proposition which is qualitatively different to the claim that she "sacrificed herself for her country". The latter implies public-spirited heroism. From what we know of her personality - sadistic, utterly self-centered, snobbish, disdainful - it is speculation to expect public-spirited heroism from her. One might as well speculate about Guo Jing developing a sudden lust for Xiaolongnu. (At least that piece of speculation is fun.)

    In what way was GF sadistic? I would agree on points 2,3 and probably 4 (is disdainful a personality trait?), but I can't think of any part of the novel which would depict her as sadistic as an adult (minus the one incident with the insects/birds/beasts when she was before or about 7, these acts were never repeated to my memory). As it is, she has more than enough faults, we should be fair and not add in faults that she did not have

    But since this is a Glorification Thread (impossible as it may seem), I feel obliged to say something nice about her. So after much thought and head scratching, I finally came out with one, she stayed and help out at Xiang Yang for years (intention is all that counts, not results)
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  11. #71
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    its nice to always explore the alternatives, sometimes even beyond what the author implied.
    Agree. Our perceptions need to be challenged constantly in order to stay current and valid.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #72
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    In what way was GF sadistic? I would agree on points 2,3 and probably 4 (is disdainful a personality trait?), but I can't think of any part of the novel which would depict her as sadistic as an adult (minus the one incident with the insects/birds/beasts when she was before or about 7, these acts were never repeated to my memory). As it is, she has more than enough faults, we should be fair and not add in faults that she did not have
    When she was fighting one of the Shi Brothers, she was about the lose and he kindly let her go, she stabbed him when he wasn't prepared - it was said that she felt proud of her "accomplishment."
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #73
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    When she was fighting one of the Shi Brothers, she was about the lose and he kindly let her go, she stabbed him when he wasn't prepared - it was said that she felt proud of her "accomplishment."


    Either you or I have been consuming laughing bugs lately.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    When she was fighting one of the Shi Brothers, she was about the lose and he kindly let her go, she stabbed him when he wasn't prepared - it was said that she felt proud of her "accomplishment."
    That's not sadistic. Just dishonorable.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  15. #75
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    That's not sadistic. Just dishonorable.
    I agree with kidd, it isn't sadistic. Only the first chapter showed her being sadistic and that was when she was between 5-7. After that, there was no other examples so I would argue that you cannot put sadistic to her lengthy list of bad traits
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  16. #76
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    That's not sadistic. Just dishonorable.
    It's a bit more than that. She has to win every time no matter what. Even when she is clearly wrong, even if she clearly wrecks other lives, as long as she 'wins', she feels great.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  17. #77
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    PJ: that's self-centred, not sadistic
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  18. #78
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    I agree with kidd, it isn't sadistic. Only the first chapter showed her being sadistic and that was when she was between 5-7. After that, there was no other examples so I would argue that you cannot put sadistic to her lengthy list of bad traits
    Btw, that sadistic trait appears to be rather common in kids of her age. Many kids of that age tend to "experiment" around with insects and animals in various ways that many grown ups would not approve of - usually because grown ups would know better than kids do.

    Kids are kids, morality and proper behaviour have yet to be set in during that time.

    As such, we do not see GF repeating the same behaviour once she's grown up. If she does, then yes, "sadistic" can be officially listed as one of her bad traits and characteristics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    It's a bit more than that. She has to win every time no matter what. Even when she is clearly wrong, even if she clearly wrecks other lives, as long as she 'wins', she feels great.
    Still not sadism... if you are still arguing on that line. She clearly enjoys the feeling of winning, not the injury itself. That's a big difference.
    Last edited by Guo Xiang; 01-12-10 at 11:40 PM.
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  19. #79
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    Guo Xiang: I agree with what you said, I was just pointing out that part of the story before anyone else can jump on it and say "there's your proof".
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    It's a bit more than that. She has to win every time no matter what. Even when she is clearly wrong, even if she clearly wrecks other lives, as long as she 'wins', she feels great.
    Sadistic is having pleasure in inflicting pain on others.

    She feels great for winning, not, torturing someone.

    Example of a sadistic act is Ah Zi torturing You Tan Zhi. Now, that's a sadist.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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