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Thread: The Gwok Fu Glorification Thread

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
    The problem with GF is that she inherited the worst possible genes from both her parents and none of the good ones (GX is the opposite of course).
    The Gwok sisters represent, I believe, some of the most hamfisted character development ever seen in fiction. Gwok Fu was a one note horror, and to compensate, her little sister was depicted as a complete Mary Sue.

    In fact, characterization seems to be a *huge* Achilles' Heel in ROCH. It's not that the characters were not memorable, but that their characterization was done with no subtlety at all. Everybody was painted in broad strokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Gwok sisters represent, I believe, some of the most hamfisted character development ever seen in fiction. Gwok Fu was a one note horror, and to compensate, her little sister was depicted as a complete Mary Sue.

    In fact, characterization seems to be a *huge* Achilles' Heel in ROCH. It's not that the characters were not memorable, but that their characterization was done with no subtlety at all. Everybody was painted in broad strokes.
    Hence why some people have higher opinion of Jin Yong's later novels (post-HSDS), where characters became more 2D/3D than those of earlier novels.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Hence why some people have higher opinion of Jin Yong's later novels (post-HSDS), where characters became more 2D/3D than those of earlier novels.
    ROCH was actually a step back in characterization even compared to LOCH. Even in LOCH, Jin Yong showed greater subtlety and skill in characterization: he kept telling us, "Gwok Jing is dumb! Gwok Jing is dumb!" but then showed Gwok Jing accomplishing things in a manner that perhaps showed that there was more to Gwok Jing than the simpleton that he apparently was. Even a character such as Mui Chiu Fung, who was sold to us in LOCH as a villain, was given subtle touches to make her a sympathetic character (something later also extended to West Poison Au Yeung Fung).

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    I think is what I am seeing, not just for Gwok Fu but for all of the other JY characters as well....I think a lot of people have not really read the novel and have only seen the TV adaptions which may or may not be accurate so we base a lot of our judgement based on the TV adaptions. Also, I have also noticed that it is really hard to separate the actress/actor who portrays the character from the character themselves. For example, a lot of Idy Chan fans claim to love XLN.... However, I don't think they actually like the character of XLN but they just like Idy Chan as XLN. IF she did not play that character then I highly doubt those Idy Chan fans would give a care about XLN as a character. I think it is the same with Gwok Fu... Those who are defending her have only seen more toned down portrayals of her from TV adaptions that are portrayed by actresses they really like. Therefore, it is hard to separate the character from the actresses/actors that portray them. I have seen a similar case with Jin She Lang Jun who has all been portrayed by famous and popular actors so some may like the character more than they should just because he has been protrayed by likeable actors.
    Respect other people's opinions and views. If we learn how to do that than all of these fights and arguments will not occur.

  5. #125
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    I think is what I am seeing, not just for Gwok Fu but for all of the other JY characters as well....I think a lot of people have not really read the novel and have only seen the TV adaptions which may or may not be accurate so we base a lot of our judgement based on the TV adaptions. Also, I have also noticed that it is really hard to separate the actress/actor who portrays the character from the character themselves. For example, a lot of Idy Chan fans claim to love XLN.... However, I don't think they actually like the character of XLN but they just like Idy Chan as XLN. IF she did not play that character then I highly doubt those Idy Chan fans would give a care about XLN as a character. I think it is the same with Gwok Fu... Those who are defending her have only seen more toned down portrayals of her from TV adaptions that are portrayed by actresses they really like. Therefore, it is hard to separate the character from the actresses/actors that portray them. I have seen a similar case with Jin She Lang Jun who has all been portrayed by famous and popular actors so some may like the character more than they should just because he has been protrayed by likeable actors.
    I've always liked Idy Chan. She's a very pretty lady, a good actress, and from what I've *read*, one of the nicest people in Hong Kong's show business. I liked her in a variety of roles she played for TVB during the late 1970s and early 1980s. I did not like her Little Dragon Girl character at all, however.


    I'm indifferent to Annie On-Lai Liu, the actress who portrayed Gwok Fu in ROCH '83. She's not unattractive, but I've never found her extraordinarily good-looking. She's a very good actress, however, who did very good work in a number of different roles for TVB at around the same period that Idy Chan was also a regular for the studio. Gwok Fu was sort of a departure for Ms. Liu because she had been known for "good girl" roles. From what I've seen and read of Ms. Liu, she also seemed to be reasonably nice person...never heard or read too much dirt on her. She's also a talented musician, and did some drumming for TVB on one of its holiday shows as part of a rock band consisting entirely of TVB actors and actresses. There were aspects of her Gwok Fu I didn't like (the obvious ones), and there were moments when the scriptwriters seemed to determined that we see this character in a more fully developed and sympathetic light than given in Jin Yong's original depiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    ROCH was actually a step back in characterization even compared to LOCH. Even in LOCH, Jin Yong showed greater subtlety and skill in characterization: he kept telling us, "Gwok Jing is dumb! Gwok Jing is dumb!" but then showed Gwok Jing accomplishing things in a manner that perhaps showed that there was more to Gwok Jing than the simpleton that he apparently was. Even a character such as Mui Chiu Fung, who was sold to us in LOCH as a villain, was given subtle touches to make her a sympathetic character (something later also extended to West Poison Au Yeung Fung).
    Maybe all these subtleties are just created by TVB scriptwriters instead of JY himself.

    I don't think it's subtlety. It's just inconsistency or JY failed to show what he tells.

    I haven't read LOCH but, I've read OTG. JY kept saying Shi Po Tian is intelligent. But many readers still think he's dumb because of his actions. Even though many of his 'dumb' actions are due to his ignorance of how the real world works and he did display quick wit in certain scenes (he's also a fast learner), but, there are some instances where he's really dumb and these instances can't be assigned to ignorance.

    I don't know. If an author tell his reader something and not as the thoughts of other characters, he must meant it, right?

    Really don't get why JY treated GF so badly. Initially, GF was meant to end up with YG. So, I believe, in the initially plan, GF did/will have some redeeming feature. Why after JY abandoned this idea, he made GF into such an awful character without any redeeming feature what so ever (except that she's hot)?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

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    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post
    I realised you have 'selective reading'; since if you think i aint worth the trouble, the same could be said in response.
    Without any qualification of your statement from you, I guess you mean, then, you selectively read ROCH the novel. (If that’s not what you mean, kindly explain.)

    Unless you can have some material evidence to back your position, any further continuation is a waste of time (more so than it already is). Debate over.
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  8. #128
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    I think it's fair to say she continues to display a sadistic edge long after that passage. There are a fair few moments where she is clearly rather pleased at the harm she's caused. Minor ones include taunting Yang Guo in Chapter 24 by casting aspersions on Xiaolongnu's behaviour (Jinyong describes GF as being "delighted" by YG's reaction), and enjoying injuring Lu Wushuang in Chapter 31: "Guo Fu raised her sword. Seeing the blade streaked with blood, she knew Lu Wushuang had been wounded on the leg. Pleased, she pointed at her..."

    Those aren't a big deal compared to what she does in Chapter 35. Having started a fight - which stops when Guo Xiang arrives and tells her that those she's fighting with are "friends", prompting Shi Mengjie to withdraw - the following happens:



    The injury to Shi is not trivial; he "collapses", his wound "spurting blood". Those watching are appalled by GF's "brutality" and point out that her attack could've been fatal if it was a couple of inches lower.

    Later in Chapter 35, GF follows up this physical bullying with some psychological bullying - of her own little sister. Arriving back at Xiangyang, she attempts to get Guo Xiang into hot water with their parents by saying she's caused "big trouble" (and deliberately "spicing up" her tale of what's happened). Afterwards, hearing Guo Xiang fret that her 16th birthday falls unfortunately on the date of the Heroes' Banquet, she mocks her:



    Note that, at this point, GX was just 15 years old, while GF was a c.35-year-old married woman with considerable status both inside wulin and outside (YG describes her as "The Princess of Xiangyang"). What do you think JY is trying to tell you about GF's character?

    -

    The issue of whether you first encounter GF in a TV adaptation or on paper is very pertinent. On TV, it's easy to relate to her as a 'real person' and make excuses for her. On paper, she's indefensible. The problem is when people superimpose their 'TV impression' of GF onto what JY actually wrote.

    I think people are also allowing themselves to be fooled by the fact that GF happens to be the daughter of Saint Guo Jing, and on the side of the 'goodies'. In Shen Diao, nobody harms the hero & heroine more than her, nobody is portrayed with such consistent lack of sympathy, and nobody takes longer than her to repent. Think about it. What is JY really trying to tell you? Do you need a character to have a scary moustache, an evil laugh and plans to take over the world before you understand that they're basically a villain?
    Reality doesn’t matter to some people. That’s just the way it is. Just try to explain why they are wrong but sometimes they might not even care.

    All you can do is support the right position based on what’s in the book.

    As far as sadism, my opinion is that she is just a huge byatch with little no redeeming qualities. It’s not sadism in the literal sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by "ken cheng'
    ROCH was actually a step back in characterization even compared to LOCH. Even in LOCH, Jin Yong showed greater subtlety and skill in characterization: he kept telling us, "Gwok Jing is dumb! Gwok Jing is dumb!" but then showed Gwok Jing accomplishing things in a manner that perhaps showed that there was more to Gwok Jing than the simpleton that he apparently was. Even a character such as Mui Chiu Fung, who was sold to us in LOCH as a villain, was given subtle touches to make her a sympathetic character (something later also extended to West Poison Au Yeung Fung).
    I disagree. ROCH in some ways was quite similar to LOCH. Quest for vengeance, Jin/Mongol lackeys, magically fast development of kung fu, etc. But in terms of characterization it is definitely not a step back. The character of YG was a lot deeper than the characterization of GJ. XLN was in fact one dimensional, but that’s the way she’s supposed to be. The supporting characters are all pretty well developed. GF might be “one dimensional” in terms of being all negative, but she’s just a spoiled byatch with no redeeming qualities. That’s just her. People like that exist. I know several in my life just like that. Self-centered, unreasonable, drama queen, etc. etc. People like GX exist too. I know a few as well.

    It doesn’t make ROCH>LOCH necessarily, but in terms of characterizations, it was not a step back.
    Last edited by jiang bao; 01-14-10 at 01:16 PM.
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    If not for her, there would be no Shen Diao Da Xia. And, DGQB's martial arts might have disappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Gwok sisters represent, I believe, some of the most hamfisted character development ever seen in fiction. Gwok Fu was a one note horror, and to compensate, her little sister was depicted as a complete Mary Sue.
    Guo Xiang was basically a female Yang Guo, except that she never grew up in an isolated environment. Everything else, from her gregariousness, busybodyness, whimsy, easygoingness, and even a streak of pride, was similar to Yang Guo. The first two chapters of HSDS shows this most clearly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    ROCH was actually a step back in characterization even compared to LOCH. Even in LOCH, Jin Yong showed greater subtlety and skill in characterization: he kept telling us, "Gwok Jing is dumb! Gwok Jing is dumb!" but then showed Gwok Jing accomplishing things in a manner that perhaps showed that there was more to Gwok Jing than the simpleton that he apparently was. Even a character such as Mui Chiu Fung, who was sold to us in LOCH as a villain, was given subtle touches to make her a sympathetic character (something later also extended to West Poison Au Yeung Fung).
    The intelligence that Guo Jing showed was normally related to martial arts in which case he is perhaps an idiot savant. But even then I don't think JY meant for him to be one, it was just that the plot drove him into being one, and not characterization. There wasn't really any situation where he showed cunning beyond what any average person would realize in his shoes with his experiences, but plenty of moments where you scream at him to please think of it another way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian
    Guo Xiang was basically a female Yang Guo, except that she never grew up in an isolated environment. Everything else, from her gregariousness, busybodyness, whimsy, easygoingness, and even a streak of pride, was similar to Yang Guo. The first two chapters of HSDS shows this most clearly.
    Intriguing analysis. I wouldn't quite agree, however. Yang Guo has sociopathic tendencies, and his view of the world is about taking everything *very* personally. (What Shen Diao showed was that this can still make for Guo Jing-style public-spirited heroism.) Shen Diao-era Guo Xiang is much more well-adjusted, has a talismanic effect on others, and displays natural compassion. I take your point that she seems a bit more YG-esque in Yi Tian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    Intriguing analysis. I wouldn't quite agree, however. Yang Guo has sociopathic tendencies, and his view of the world is about taking everything *very* personally. (What Shen Diao showed was that this can still make for Guo Jing-style public-spirited heroism.) Shen Diao-era Guo Xiang is much more well-adjusted, has a talismanic effect on others, and displays natural compassion. I take your point that she seems a bit more YG-esque in Yi Tian.
    Guo Xiang grew up in a sizeable extended family, loved by many, so she was naturally trusting and outgoing. Yang Guo grew up either alone or in a very limited family, so he had some tendency to turn inwards. However, by the time of the disappearance of Xiao Longnu, he had got some perspective on life, and was no longer inward-looking (excepting XLN-related issues). Because of her more normal upbringing, Guo Xiang as we first meet her was at the stage of the later Yang Guo in terms of social habits. In everything else, she was like Yang Guo as he had always been, even from the first time we see him.

    As a kid who barely knew any fighting skills, let alone formal martial arts, he was already throwing himself in Li Mochou's way to save two girls who were complete strangers to him. Among the protagonists, Guo Jing and Zhang Wuji had some attachments to the girls they protected, but Yang Guo had never met Lu Wushuang and Cheng Ying before, and wouldn't even find out their names until years later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
    My only beef with this is that JY must really dislike GJ & HR and want to punish them by giving them such a horrible daughter! I mean, how can two great people produce such garbage?? YG is a son of a traitor and yet everyone loves him and he can't do no wrong in some people's eyes.
    Maybe JY was afraid to bore his readers with a picture perfect so he erased that image of happily-ever-after. It is rather adventurous of JY to make this picture imperfect, which could imply to us that the same applies in real life.
    Last edited by remember_Cedric; 01-15-10 at 06:54 AM.
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    Default Yin and Xiang

    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian
    Guo Xiang grew up in a sizeable extended family, loved by many, so she was naturally trusting and outgoing. Yang Guo grew up either alone or in a very limited family, so he had some tendency to turn inwards. However, by the time of the disappearance of Xiao Longnu, he had got some perspective on life, and was no longer inward-looking (excepting XLN-related issues). Because of her more normal upbringing, Guo Xiang as we first meet her was at the stage of the later Yang Guo in terms of social habits. In everything else, she was like Yang Guo as he had always been, even from the first time we see him.
    I'd question the usage of the mature Yang Guo as the prime reference point. In my opinion, that isn't the quintessential YG, but a much blander, watered-down version, with less of a distinctive identity. His personality is no longer in the foreground, as reflected in his reduced pagetime and the fact that he's become a semi-mythical-slash-establishment figure. The things that make YG interesting and functional within the novel's themes are generally the traits of the younger YG - who, in his thoughts, goes to the sort of dark places that Guo Xiang never went, and was portrayed as an unpredictable catalyst for trouble just as GX was portrayed as an angelic talisman. I think you're right to point out some shared ground, but I'm still not convinced by the overall argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian
    As a kid who barely knew any fighting skills, let alone formal martial arts, he was already throwing himself in Li Mochou's way to save two girls who were complete strangers to him. Among the protagonists, Guo Jing and Zhang Wuji had some attachments to the girls they protected, but Yang Guo had never met Lu Wushuang and Cheng Ying before, and wouldn't even find out their names until years later.
    You mean the first of his friendly cuddles with Li Mochou? Oh come on. If I had the chance, I would 'hug' LMC every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

    Seriously, I'm not saying Yang Guo isn't a hero. He's just the 'opposite' sort of hero to Shen Diao-era Guo Jing. GJ is driven to heroism primarily by high principle, while YG is driven to heroism primarily by personal feelings. This is epitomised by their contrasting attitudes to Guo Xiang in the context of the Mongol invasion. True, he didn't know Lu and Cheng in Chapter 1, but LMC was kidnapping them in his very own home. What's more telling about his character is how he relates to the two girls later. He only gets involved with LWS in Chapter 8 because she reminded him of Xiaolongnu, and the key moment in his relationship with CY is when she reminds him of his mother in Chapter 15. It's a 'bottom-up' view of the world, rather than GJ's 'top-down' perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
    The problem with GF is that she inherited the worst possible genes from both her parents and none of the good ones (GX is the opposite of course). On top of that, she's the first born and was completely spoiled to a point of no return. Who do we blame for how she turned out? Her parents, of course, but GF should also bear all the blame for all the crap she did as an adult. My only beef with this is that JY must really dislike GJ & HR and want to punish them by giving them such a horrible daughter! I mean, how can two great people produce such garbage?? YG is a son of a traitor and yet everyone loves him and he can't do no wrong in some people's eyes.
    Well, most people didn’t like YG or XLN cuz of their teacher/pupil relationship. The people who adored him saw beyond his sometimes prickish façade and saw his heroic nature. There wasn’t much backlash against him in terms of his dad being a “traitor,” which is not true IMO. (If China went to war with the U.S. and I fought for the U.S., would that make me a traitor?) Other than HR, the blind dude, and some of the Taoists, his heritage wasn’t a big factor.

    On the other hand, GF, other than being lucky enough to be the daughter of two big shots, there’s really nothing to admire about her… except horndogs may wanna do her since she’s pretty.
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    Guo Fu has no reason to be such a bad person, look at her parents - Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Now look at her grandparents - Guo Xiaotian, Li Ping, Huang Yaoshi, HYS's wife. There's just no logic in terms of genes being passed down to her (I don't know much about HYS's wife though). She doesn't have to worry about food, lodging, clothing, martial arts, etc. as well.

    So obviously something traumatic must have happened when she was young that changed her in which Jin Yong didn't tell us. Or simply Jin Yong made this poor little lady to be the scapegoat to show us that Guo Jing and Huang Rong aren't the perfect couple and and they aren't the perfect marriage.
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    Just because GJ and HR are great heroes on their own right, it doesn’t mean they are good parents. GJ doesn’t have much parenting skills other than yelling, and HR dotes on GF. GF, not being bright or introspective, develops an arrogance and sense of self-importance from being spoiled by her mom and having her butt kissed by everybody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88 View Post
    Guo Fu has no reason to be such a bad person, look at her parents - Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Now look at her grandparents - Guo Xiaotian, Li Ping, Huang Yaoshi, HYS's wife. There's just no logic in terms of genes being passed down to her (I don't know much about HYS's wife though). She doesn't have to worry about food, lodging, clothing, martial arts, etc. as well.

    So obviously something traumatic must have happened when she was young that changed her in which Jin Yong didn't tell us. Or simply Jin Yong made this poor little lady to be the scapegoat to show us that Guo Jing and Huang Rong aren't the perfect couple and and they aren't the perfect marriage.
    Her whole meanness simply stem from serious feelings of being inadequate. She's dumb and untalented, and she knows that, meaning she also knows she will never be able to live up to the high expectations placed on her shoulders by everyone ever since she was born. So part of the reason she acted out like that can be described as some sort of self-defence. It's not really trauma in the usual sense... but yes, it can deeply affect a person's development.

    Agree with JB btw. Genes and family background can mean nothing. Perfectly fine people have produced kids who grew up to be serial killers and psychos.
    Last edited by Guo Xiang; 01-16-10 at 07:50 AM.
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    Well, if she was a byatch because of feelings of inadequacy, she hid it pretty well. From her thoughts that are shown, she never seemed to have one ounce of introspection. What stopped her from doing something was fear of punishment by her dad and perhaps the Flying Bat. Basically showing no internalization of morality.
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