Would Hong Lung 18 *Fists* work?

[Ken Cheng]

In the non-wuxia world, a punch from a closed fist generally does more damage to an opponent than would a push or slap from an open palm. The physics of the closed fist delivers much more intense impact than an open palm could.

Would the same principle apply in wuxia if a Hong Lung 18 Palms user were to use the same techniques except with a closed fist instead of an open palm? Wouldn't the user be able to inflict even greater damage with a closed fist?

Moreover, is there anything that precludes a Hong Lung 18 Palms expert from turning the palm into a fist (i.e. fire deviation, decrease in power/efficiency, etc.)?

[Banh Mi]

Palm strikes don't run the risk of breaking your knuckles if you strike something hard, though conditioned fists are said to be able to hard surfaces without damage.

Palms can also attack from more angles, with your fist, you have to maintain alignment with your wrist so the angles you have are limited.

[ChronoReverse]

The power difference between fists and palms from surface area shouldn't be that large. Just as you strike with a specific part of the fist that's smaller than the full fist, you also strike with specific parts of the palm. You lose some reach but maximum tolerable power can actually be higher since the wrist is taken out of consideration.

However, I'm not familiar with quick palm strikes and whether they can be snapped out like punches can. I've always considered palm strikes as the power hits with punches as the more exploratory attacks.

[K2Grey]

Well, in wuxia terms, XL18Z seems to be primarily about skillful ways to transmit inner power. And palms appear to be better at this than fists for whatever reason (maybe because there's a acupoint in the middle of the hand or whatever), e.g. when people make LDAs its almost always a palm or a finger, but never a fist.

[Banh Mi]

I don't know if this is relevent, but there is a belief that fist strikes are driven by external power, and palms are internal power.

[ChronoReverse]

There's no reason for that to be true though. ZBT's Vacuum Fists are obviously internal energy based for instance.

[Banh Mi]

I'm talking about martial arts in the real world. And like I said, it's just a belief that is held regarding Eastern martial arts. But there's things that contradict that. Taiji, Hsing Yi and Ba Gua are the main internal martial arts, and each of them have punches.

Certain styles of Karate, such as goju ryu use palm strikes when striking the head.

[AnhHung]

Wuxia logic:
Perhaps the difference between a palm strike and a fist strike in wuxia is the way power is gathered and how it is released.

HL18P uniqueness is the way it gather inner power and the stances to aid the release through the palm. Releasing it through a fist would not maximize full potential.

Similiar is the 7HurtFist. Releasing it with a palm would reduce its power.

An external art however, the result would be the same since it is purly (real world) physics.

[Extremer88]

Wuxia logic:
Perhaps the difference between a palm strike and a fist strike in wuxia is the way power is gathered and how it is released.

HL18P uniqueness is the way it gather inner power and the stances to aid the release through the palm. Releasing it through a fist would not maximize full potential.

Similiar is the 7HurtFist. Releasing it with a palm would reduce its power.

An external art however, the result would be the same since it is purly (real world) physics.

Isn't XL18Z an external martial arts that, coupled with powerful internal energy becomes more powerful?

[AnhHung]

Isn't XL18Z an external martial arts that, coupled with powerful internal energy becomes more powerful?

As I see it, no palm MA is only external. If it were only external, then whats stopping OYF from learning it during the sword tournament? Surely, he must have seen almost all the stances.

The thing is, I separate between external stances, internal generating moves (sam fa -> heart art) and internal power. E.g. QKDNY is a Sam Fa, which can be powered by whatever internal power. HL18Z is consist of external stances and internal generating moves. One must use it together to exploit the full power. A peeping tom would only learn external stances and although having great internal power, would not able to utilize the stances.

[pannonian]

Guo Jing's first palm strike on Mei Chaofeng was half fist and half palm. He got the punch in, but couldn't follow up with the palm.

[kyss of the sword]

i think a fist should be more specific in attack then a palm. a palm focuses on ability to compress a wider variety of attack in each strike, more changes and variations. a fist maybe more direct and less changes. HGQ once said to GJ during mt hua tournament, i thought you your palm skills, should we compete in fist, you use weapon. it was like fist skills were considered a lower level of techniques. seven injury fist was unique because it was a fist skill on par with the advance palm skills. maybe like how yiyang zhi and TZTSG are on par with HL18Z even through general accuipoint sealing skills were considered third class techniques for combat.