Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Hung 7 Gung (Dog Beating Stick Technique) vs. Hung 7 Gung (Hong Lung 18 Palms)

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,735

    Default Hung 7 Gung (Dog Beating Stick Technique) vs. Hung 7 Gung (Hong Lung 18 Palms)

    Sometimes, in comparing martial arts techniques, we run into the problem of, "It depends on the practitioner, not on the martial art."

    Be that as it may, I'm curious about which of the Beggar's Union's two famed martial arts, the Dog Beating Stick Technique and the Hong Lung 18 Palms, is superior and would likely defeat the other in a fight. I devised a simple solution to the "practitioner" problem.

    Imagine that there are two identical clones of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung. Both have identical physiques, health conditions, inner power level, and years of experience. The two Hung 7 Gungs are identical in every way except that Hung 7 Gung A knows only the Dog Beating Stick Technique and Hung 7 Gung B knows only the Hong Lung 18 Palms (although I suppose both would also know Hung 7 Gung's ancillary martial arts such as Siu Yiu Fist).

    So who would win, A (Dog Beating Stick Technique) or B (Hong Lung 18 Palms)?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    298

    Default

    North Beggar Hung 7 Gung himself said that "Dog Beating Stick" was superior.

    After he exhausted himself battling Ouyang Feng in his final battle.
    Hong Qigong was regretful; during the days when he was fighting with him, all he had to do was just use a few stances of the “Dog Beating Stick Technique” and he would definitely be able to subdue him. But he felt that Ouyang Feng was mentally unstable so he already has an advantage over him. Using the Beggar Clan’s treasured “Dog Beating Stick Technique” against him wouldn’t be fair. It was not the actions of a hero. But who knew that although his mind was unstable, his kung fu did not decline one bit. In the end, both of them ended up seriously injured. He wanted to use this set of skills but he had no energy to do so.
    He had already used "Hong Lung 18 Palms" during the battle.

  3. #3
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,735

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahoxan View Post
    North Beggar Hung 7 Gung himself said that "Dog Beating Stick" was superior.
    So he said, but in each Jin Yong story featuring both of these martial arts, I do not remember any exhibition of the Dog Beating Stick Technique that demonstrated its supposed superiority to Hong Lung 18 Palms.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    So he said, but in each Jin Yong story featuring both of these martial arts, I do not remember any exhibition of the Dog Beating Stick Technique that demonstrated its supposed superiority to Hong Lung 18 Palms.
    There are only a few people who knew the complete "Dog Beating Stick" or "Hong Lung 18 Palms"... and they never fought each other.

    Both Huang Rong and Yang Guo did use "Dog Beating Stick" to fight against opponents of much superior strength and beat... or did not lose to them.

    Huang Rong vs. the Beggar Clan elders when she became the Beggar Clan chief.

    Yang Guo vs. Huo Du (Golden Wheel Monk's treacherous disciple) at the Hero's meet to elect a Wulin Chancellor... when he still didn't know the complete "Dog Beating Stick"

    Yang Guo vs. Golden Wheel Monk to protect Huang Rong & Guo Fu immediately after Huang Rong finished teaching him the complete "Dog Beating Stick".


    Assuming equality in all things... techniques wins over power.
    "Dog Beating Stick" is about techniques.
    "Hong Lung 18 Palms" is about power.

    I seem to recall that good fighters (in real life) usually states that technique is the determining factor when all other things are equal... and Jin Yong usually follows this precept in his writing.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    4 seasons in 1 day
    Posts
    1,138

    Default

    I would be curious how the range of dog beating stick and dragon palms factors in.

  6. #6
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    currently in malaysia
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    HL18Z is the extreme of yang palmtechniques. DBS is the extreme of yin stick techniques. DBS is similar to taiji jian fa. it uses slow and soft against hard and 4 liang moving 1000jin and circles as it's principles.
    an extract from roch translation
    click to show/hide spoilers
    After another ten stances or so, the weaknesses in Lu You Jiao’s [Dog Beating Stick Technique] began to show itself. Yang Guo saw every stance clearly and couldn’t stop himself from creasing his brows. Luckily the [Dog Beating Stick Technique]’s name is famous, and as soon as it was used, Huo Dou was struck in the lower leg, Huo Dou was worried and didn’t dare to get too close, otherwise Lu You Jiao would have lost long ago. Huang Rong saw that something was wrong and was about to call out and tell Lu You Jiao to come back when Lu You Jiao suddenly used a stance of [Hitting the Dog’s Back from the Side], the bamboo stick flashed across and struck Huo Dou’s left cheek. But this stance was too heavy, the lightness of the skill was lost, Huo Dou suddenly stretched out his hand and held the bamboo stick in his hand, he had no more worries and suddenly threw out a palm that struck Lu You Jiao in the chest and then followed it by a sweep, a ‘ka la’ sound was heard as Lu You Jiao’s leg was broken, a pool of blood was spat out as he fell forwards. Two seven band members dashed forward to support him. When everyone saw how ruthless Huo Dou was, they were extremely angry and they all shouted out and cursed.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

  7. #7
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahoxan View Post
    I seem to recall that good fighters (in real life) usually states that technique is the determining factor when all other things are equal... and Jin Yong usually follows this precept in his writing.

    Errr, when All things are equal, isn't it not only just technique which decides? I mean, when all things are equal, you can say speed/strength/reach/stamina/attitude etc etc is the determining factor.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Errr, when All things are equal, isn't it not only just technique which decides? I mean, when all things are equal, you can say speed/strength/reach/stamina/attitude etc etc is the determining factor.

    Sorry... I should have been clearer.
    "All things equal" refers to all the physical and mental qualities you mentioned.
    "technique" refers to the skill used for determination.

    So for this thread... Ken already stated that the comparison/competition would be between identical clones of Hong Qigong. The only difference would be the use of "Hong Lung 18 Palms" or "Dog Beating Stick".

    The difference between the two skills in my opinion is Power vs. Techniques.
    kyss of the sword refers to them as "the extremes of yang vs. yin techniques".


    LOL...
    The confusing thing is that we often talk about Yang and Yin techniques...
    ... and I use the word "technique" to refer to the skill sets and how to perform the moves. I'll leave the extended explanations to forums members who are more familiar with how the differences should be explained.

  9. #9
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    currently in malaysia
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    yang is hot, hard, light, direct, masculine.
    yin is cold, soft, heavy, indirect, feminine.
    yang when referring to techniques mean direct while yin means indirect.
    HL18Z is the most yang technique because every strike is straightforwardly attacking the enemy directly, there no feints in the skill. some moves interchange but no feints.
    dog beating skill doesn't actually attack directly but each strike has a mysterious change, the attacks are difficult to see and counter even as each of the 36 strikes continuously targets one of the 36 fatal accuipoints. the skill is full of feints and so is considered a yin skill.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,026

    Default

    I think you've got heavy/light mixed around for yin/yang. Yang should be heavy and overbearing, whereas yin should be light and elusive.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    LOHAH - Land of Honour & Happiness
    Posts
    2,405

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahoxan View Post
    The difference between the two skills in my opinion is Power vs. Techniques.
    kyss of the sword refers to them as "the extremes of yang vs. yin techniques".
    I believe

    (a) to understand the theories behind the Dog Beating Stick and
    (b) countering the Dog Beating Stick
    requires a certain amount of intelligence or more importantly, martial arts experience for (b).

    Its a more technical martial arts, obvious as well, because it requires a stick to execute the skills. But not just that, I was thinking, is Dog Beating Stick dynamic enough to exploit the weakness of an opponent by executing stances to attack the opponent's weakpoint?
    ..ext88

  12. #12
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    LOHAH - Land of Honour & Happiness
    Posts
    2,405

    Post

    It is also logical to say that the Hong Qigong who mastered the XL18Z have much stronger internal energy than the other one. That means he can recover faster and last longer in combat, which is an advantage.
    ..ext88

  13. #13
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88 View Post
    But not just that, I was thinking, is Dog Beating Stick dynamic enough to exploit the weakness of an opponent by executing stances to attack the opponent's weakpoint?
    Depends what you call attacking an opponent's weakpoint. I don't really buy the theory in XAJH that all moves must have a flaw in the sense of an opening you can attack and counter the move. However, certainly no move is perfect...

    Which brings up what DBS can do. There's indication that it does attack actual flaws but it's better than that. The nature of DBS opens up flaws in an opponents moves. For example, where a powerful staff technique may have no (usable) hole to push through, DBS can trap and control the opponent's technique until there's plenty of room to crush the opponent.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    I think they're equal and depends more on the practitioner's personality than anything else.

    Xiao Feng was a leap before looking kind of person (which cost him the love of his life) and therefore he used and was very good at Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang.

    Guo Jing had a simple and straightforward personality so XL18Z was good for him too.

    Conversely, both Bei Gai and Huang Rong were more thoughtful personalities and Dog Beating Stick was their more powerful art. Although, with his upright moral character, Bei Gai was no slouch with XL18Z either.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Depends what you call attacking an opponent's weakpoint. I don't really buy the theory in XAJH that all moves must have a flaw in the sense of an opening you can attack and counter the move. However, certainly no move is perfect...

    Which brings up what DBS can do. There's indication that it does attack actual flaws but it's better than that. The nature of DBS opens up flaws in an opponents moves. For example, where a powerful staff technique may have no (usable) hole to push through, DBS can trap and control the opponent's technique until there's plenty of room to crush the opponent.
    I think the Jin Yong explanation "in XAJH that all moves must have a flaw" is one instance when his martial arts description is faulty. In other instances of XAJH, his meaning becomes clearer.


    He merely meant that no matter how "perfect" a "move" is... it cannot cover or attack everything. With speed... you can always strike at an uncovered point.

    A sphere shield would be perfect. A weapon cannot cover all points... so must sequentially deal against multiple attacks one by one. If you're fast enough... you can attack the uncovered point and win.... (i.e. Dongfang Invincible & his(?) emasculated Da Fa. )

  16. #16
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    That what I had assumed at first too. However, JY in his narrative demonstrates both perspectives. More often than not, he uses the "hole in the technique" version but it isn't really a problem. He demonstrates holes, creating flaws as well as what would be practically "perfect" technique so JY himself certainly knows about it.

    Unfortunately, my issue is that many readers don't seem to make that distinction or choose not to in their zeal to mock DG9J. They'd latch on to a couple of specific instances of DG9J (or other techniques) and use that as the whole basis which is rather aggravating.



    A sphere shield would be perfect.
    As an aside, this is not necessarily true. Suppose there was a technique that could somehow disperse internal energy into a true shield like that. This technique has no hole certainly, but if it were a static sphere, you could say that the entire defense is a flaw that could be exploited by concentrating the same level of energy into a piercing strike.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 12-09-09 at 07:46 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    That what I had assumed at first too.
    As an aside, this is not necessarily true. Suppose there was a technique that could somehow disperse internal energy into a true shield like that. This technique has no hole certainly, but if it were a static sphere, you could say that the entire defense is a flaw that could be exploited by concentrating the same level of energy into a piercing strike.
    All too true.
    All words.... human language... have caveats.
    A spherical shield would be "perfect" only in the sense of covering all points simultaneously.

    There is no true "perfection".
    There is no "Absolute Power".
    There is no "Immovable Object".

    The puzzle of "Absolute Power vs. Immovable Object" must always remain a puzzle. Jin Yong & other writers have a firm grasp of this when they write about "there is always someone more powerful or skillful". I like the regular reference to the saying "He doesn't know how high the sky is.".


    I like this puzzle of identical clones using different skill sets against one another.
    They would have equal mastery of both "18 Dragon Palm" and "Dog Beating Stick"... so the comparison would only about the effectiveness of the skills... and not their performance or understanding.

    I personally like using power to overwhelm an opponent for its simplicity.
    However... intellectually... generally... using techniques and minimal power in overcoming an opponent is elegant and superior. In comparing fictional martial arts in a fictional realm with only fictional physics... I go with the superiority of DBS as "technique" over "power".

  18. #18
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    currently in malaysia
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    I think you've got heavy/light mixed around for yin/yang. Yang should be heavy and overbearing, whereas yin should be light and elusive.
    no. yang is actually light, while yin is heavy. it's like hot air rises and cold air falls. the ancients really learned natures secrets when they created their daoist theories.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

  19. #19
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,072

    Default

    Its not so easy to broadly classify kung-fu techniques into pure Yin or Yang sometimes.

    Example, although XLZ is considered the ultimate Yang.

    If you had to classify 'Soft and Gentle' and 'Fierce and sharp' into Yin and Yang, wouldn't Soft be the Yang and Fierce by the Yin? In that case, is XLZ Soft while DBS is Fierce?
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  20. #20
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    currently in malaysia
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Its not so easy to broadly classify kung-fu techniques into pure Yin or Yang sometimes.

    Example, although XLZ is considered the ultimate Yang.

    If you had to classify 'Soft and Gentle' and 'Fierce and sharp' into Yin and Yang, wouldn't Soft be the Yang and Fierce by the Yin? In that case, is XLZ Soft while DBS is Fierce?
    daoist classification of martial arts is not simple but the dao states yin and yang are not separate but two halfs of a whole. so there should be no pure yang or yin art. even taiji quan through a soft art is based on balance between yin and yang. HL18Z has hard moves where softness emerges when mastered to the fullest.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-06-18, 09:21 AM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 10-13-09, 12:17 PM
  3. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-02-07, 02:23 AM
  4. Dog Beating Stick Technique
    By Ty Bo in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-30-07, 04:34 AM
  5. Hung 7 Gung: Hero?
    By anatoly_karpov in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-28-04, 04:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •