Who was the greatest Chinese political leader of the 20th century?

[Trien Chieu]

I'm not sure you got my point. I consider prostitution to be a minuscule issue compared to the monstrosity that brainwashed, impaired, and wrecked hundreds of millions of lives for a period of 10 years.

Yes, starting with Chairman Mao himself. In his book The Private Life of Chairman Mao, Mao's personal physician Li Zhisui paints Mao as a sexual predator who attracted STDs from the many women who went through his bed. Interestingly, Mao refused treatment, thus spreading his diseases onto other companions.

Chairman Mao was no "Saint of STD Removal".

Even though I recognize his great works like recapture tibet and XinJiang and crack down on prosititution but I also acknowledge that he is a marxist hypocrit. It's like "don't do as I do, do as I say".

I think that's really a stretch. Are Africans dying of STDs because of prostitution? Or are they dying of STDs because of poverty, lack of education/awareness, and lack of access to treatment? I think the latter is the bigger cause.

Why does Africa dominate the STD/HIV market? Why is it less of a concern in the developed world? Is it a coincidence that Africa is the poorest continent, and that STD/HIV is most prevalent in the poorest regions of the world?

STDs/hiv/aids are not poor men diseases. If they live responsibly, then no matter how poor they are, they wouldn't get the disease. Therefore, don't use poverty as the lame excuse for destructive lifestyle. Africa has many great natural resources, the reason they are at where they are is mostly self inflicted. Blaming personal failures on others is nothing new. It's always someone else or something else fault. Never their own fault.

China was piss poor during Chairman Mao's reign of almost 30 years; millions of people were dying of hunger and famine thanks to Mao's brain child the Great Leap Forward. Apparently, Mao was too busy getting it on with random women and cracking down on something that might become a problem, to do something about the enormous problems plaguing the country and killing millions of people which was happening in front of his eyes!

I am not going to defend Mao's wrong doing. As a marxist idealist, mao f-up the country very badly.

[Banh Mi]

STDs/hiv/aids are not poor men diseases. If they live responsibly, then no matter how poor they are, they wouldn't get the disease. Therefore, don't use poverty as the lame excuse for destructive lifestyle. Africa has many great natural resources, the reason they are at where they are is mostly self inflicted. Blaming personal failures on others is nothing new. It's always someone else or something else fault. Never their own fault.

Poverty is usually accompanied by inadequate education. How do you live responsibly when you either don't know how, can't because you can barely survive, or cant because there are people around that want to rape and kill you.

[Trien Chieu]

Poverty is usually accompanied by inadequate education. How do you live responsibly when you either don't know how, can't because you can barely survive, or cant because there are people around that want to rape and kill you.

Don't know how to live responsibly???
That is the funniest shit I ever heard of. Live responsibly is easier than ABC. How difficult is "Live below the mean, live with what you have, don't create children if you don't have the mean to raise them"? It's like how people blaming the bank for their credit card debt. It's always someone else fault, never their fault.

[PJ]

STDs/hiv/aids are not poor men diseases. If they live responsibly, then no matter how poor they are, they wouldn't get the disease. Therefore, don't use poverty as the lame excuse for destructive lifestyle.

I agree that people should try to live responsibly; it is both noble and self-sacrificing. Precisely because it is such, however, it's not a natural instinct that we're born with. Our natural instincts are to procreate and survive. Responsibility is a higher state of human character that is learned. Someone has to teach it (or preach it) to you. That's why activists try to reach out to underprivileged populations with education and awareness.

Also, it's not quite true that "If they live responsibly, no matter how poor they are, they wouldn't get the disease." An example would be a hospital infecting patients with AIDS because it was too poor to buy adequate supplies. As you know, AIDS can enter a human through an infected needle. There are many examples of how poverty contributes to poor health and other problems.

Africa has many great natural resources

They need skills and knowledge to manage their natural resources. Unfortunately, a good learning environment is one of the many human and infrastructural resources that is so sorely lacking in Africa.

Blaming personal failures on others is nothing new. It's always someone else or something else fault. Never their own fault.

As much as possible, we should avoid hasty generalizations of a body of people. For the record, I never got the impression that people in Africa are the kind who point fingers at others to blame. There are some who have a tendency to do so, but not Africans in particular.

I am not going to defend Mao's wrong doing. As a marxist idealist, mao f-up the country very badly.

This is a good summary of Chairman Mao's tendency: he was extremely idealistic. His mind was set on pursuing his agenda, getting his way, no matter the cost, and he ignored immediate problems plaguing the country and its people. Under such leadership, people will inevitably suffer greatly.

Don't know how to live responsibly???
That is the funniest shit I ever heard of. Live responsibly is easier than ABC.

If it were as easy as you think, no one would have trouble doing it, and Africa's problems will be solved (in fact, it wouldn't have occurred in the first place).

Everything is relative and not absolute. Is getting up from your chair easy? Sounds easy, right? Unless you're paralyzed. How about saying "thank you" after someone was nice to you? Easy and probably even second nature for you and I, but maybe not for someone who has never received an act of generosity before.

[Trien Chieu]

I agree that people should try to live responsibly; it is both noble and self-sacrificing. Precisely because it is such, however, it's not a natural instinct that we're born with. Our natural instincts are to procreate and survive. Responsibility is a higher state of human character that is learned. Someone has to teach it (or preach it) to you. That's why activists try to reach out to underprivileged populations with education and awareness.

Also, it's not quite true that "If they live responsibly, no matter how poor they are, they wouldn't get the disease." An example would be a hospital infecting patients with AIDS because it was too poor to buy adequate supplies. As you know, AIDS can enter a human through an infected needle. There are many examples of how poverty contributes to poor health and other problems.

I feel sorry for people who got the disease at the hospital but tht is just the tiny minority. The vast majority of them get it by having multiple sex partners. Lame excuse like "Natural instinct" does work on me.

Do you think not possessing skills in reading, writing, basic arithmetic, business, and human relationship will get someone very far just because they have natural resources?

It's their own fault for not doing what it takes to be successful.

If it were as easy as you think, no one would have trouble doing it, and Africa's problems will be solved (in fact, it wouldn't have occurred in the first place).

Being irresponsible is much easier than being responsible. It's much easier to get money by robbing the bank than by tutoring. Doing the right thing is always harder than doing the wrong thing. But is the easy way better than the hard way? I guess not.

[pemberly]

i've also read of many women getting raped, because some african men believe sleeping with a virgin will cure them of aids.

[Guo Xiang]

i've also read of many women getting raped, because some african men believe sleeping with a virgin will cure them of aids.

There's some kind of rape culture in Africa.

[pemberly]

i'm not sure it's a culture, but they do use it in warfare; ie kill the men, rape the women.

[Trien Chieu]

To eliminate/minimize rape, they should introduce law that gives harsh punishment to rapists. No mercy for rapists.

[bliss]

To eliminate/minimize rape, they should introduce law that gives harsh punishment to rapists. No mercy for rapists.

But weren't you just supporting rape Chairman Trien?

[Guo Xiang]

i'm not sure it's a culture, but they do use it in warfare; ie kill the men, rape the women.

Rape has become a culture in Africa. But yes, what you said is also true for warfare but it doesn't only apply to Africa.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ca-rape-survey

One in four men in South Africa have admitted to rape and many confess to attacking more than one victim, according to a study that exposes the country's endemic culture of sexual violence.

Three out of four rapists first attacked while still in their teens, the study found. One in 20 men said they had raped a woman or girl in the last year.

Jewkes and her colleagues interviewed a representative sample of 1,738 men in South Africa's Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal provinces.

Of those surveyed, 28% said they had raped a woman or girl, and 3% said they had raped a man or boy. Almost half who said they had carried out a rape admitted they had done so more than once, with 73% saying they had carried out their first assault before the age of 20.

[Trien Chieu]

But weren't you just supporting rape Chairman Trien?

Don't put word into my mouth!
When did I support rape chairman??? Who is the chairman??

[pemberly]

To eliminate/minimize rape, they should introduce law that gives harsh punishment to rapists. No mercy for rapists.

who do you propose implement this law? when you don't have a strong legal system or people to enforce your laws, you cannot change things. i agree with pj that education is needed because people right now will just try to gain power by any means possible, usually through violence. education is needed so people will learn that this in the long run will be detrimental to them and to their society.

[Trien Chieu]

Rape has become a culture in Africa. But yes, what you said is also true for warfare but it doesn't only apply to Africa.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ca-rape-survey

Wow, the situation is chaotic.
Desperate measure at desperate time. Convicted rapists should be castrated for the crime and if they continue attacking innocent people afterward, then they should get the death penalty.

[Dimeron]

Got to give this one to Deng.

[Dugu Qiubai's cousin]

Deng's my man anytime. He started and oversaw the opening of an entire new epoch in modern Chinese history. The transition from the craziness of the Cultural Revolution to a normal functioning society, and then taking its 1st steps onto the world stage.

There are many kinds of leaders and some of them just happened to be best suited to the particular era or situation they found themselves in. I think Dr Sun was an idealist and visionary. He also had the character and personality (read charisma) to gather people of different beliefs together for a cause. That was probably his greatest contribution to Chinese society. Most of what I read about Sun is his travelling around the world gathering support for the revolution. Much of the "real" work on the ground was done by others. I seriously doubt if Sun would perform well as a leader in war or even be able to govern the Chinese society well in peace.

I think Mao was a similar type of leader to Sun. Visionary, charismatic. But he had the added quality of 1stly wanting to be in total control, and 2ndly being totally ruthless and able to make brutal decisions without batting an eye to make his vision come true. These qualities made him really well-suited to lead during the war against the Japs and the Nationalists. He proved totally unable to lead in peacetime when the country needed normalcy and stability to do rebuilding and to grow.

Chiang was like Mao but without the vision and charisma. I am not even sure if he truly shared much of Sun' vision for a modern China. He certainly had quite different ideas on how to achieve it. From start to end he believed in some kind of militaristic social order where power would be retained and exercised by an elite caste of military leaders and society would do everything in an orderly manner (as defined in a military way). Can't remember any notable civilian thinkers/visionaries in his camp. Those with him generally either shared his beliefs for an orderly society, or were lackeys trying to benefit from association with him. And they were mostly military people.

I don't really see Zhou Enlai as a great leader. In fact he is most remembered as a great diplomat. I see Zhou as the PR guy for Mao but with a twist. Mao himself is generally pretty good with PR with the masses, but it is Zhou who is able to attract and build relationships among the leadership to support Mao. From what I have read, Zhou is not so much a lackey of Mao. In fact I see him as an active moderating influence on Mao, tempering some of his more extreme beliefs and decisions, and putting them into more palatable form for others.

Lastly, I think Deng is like Mao, but possibly with less of the charisma and need for personal power, and more of the competence in governing a country in peacetime. He showed a much better grasp of economics and realism in general than Mao.

Sorry for rambling...heh

[Dirt]

Chiang was like Mao but without the vision and charisma. I am not even sure if he truly shared much of Sun' vision for a modern China. He certainly had quite different ideas on how to achieve it. From start to end he believed in some kind of militaristic social order where power would be retained and exercised by an elite caste of military leaders and society would do everything in an orderly manner (as defined in a military way). Can't remember any notable civilian thinkers/visionaries in his camp. Those with him generally either shared his beliefs for an orderly society, or were lackeys trying to benefit from association with him. And they were mostly military people.

Not surprising given Chiang was educated in Japan.

Interestingly, Deng and many of his supporters and other Communists were educated in France.

[Dugu Qiubai's cousin]

Not surprising given Chiang was educated in Japan.

Interestingly, Deng and many of his supporters and other Communists were educated in France.

Actually Sun spent a lot of time in Japan too. But perhaps since he was never a military man, the people he knew and spent time with were business people and politicians rather than soldiers...

[Dirt]

Actually Sun spent a lot of time in Japan too. But perhaps since he was never a military man, the people he knew and spent time with were business people and politicians rather than soldiers...

True, however, Dr. Sun Yat-sen's formative years (between the ages of 13 to about 18) were spent in Hawaii and learning American culture and politics (which shaped his 3 Principles). Dr. Sun was already an adult by the time he spent much time in Japan.

[Sourplum]

Sorry all! Posted in the wrong thread.