Yeh Lut Chai vs. Cheung Chui San

[Ken Cheng]

One-on-one martial arts duel, Yeh Lut Chai from the end of ROCH vs. Cheung Chui San from his early appearances in HSDS.

Yeah, I realize that the matchup seems kind of random. I picked them mostly because the two characters were portrayed by the same actor (Simon Yam) in TVB's 1980s adaptations of ROCH and HSDS, and they're both mid-levelers in terms of martial arts in their respective novels, so I thought this might be an interesting matchup of non-Greats.

[tape]

YLQ at end of ROCH is almost certainly stronger than Zhang. He was not much if any weaker than Huo Du, who was more than a match for the Quan Zhen Masters. The QZ Masters in turn should be around equal to the likes of Xie Xun and the other Guardians, and we all saw how easily Xie Xun could pummel Zhang Cuisan. Pre-16 YLQ is harder to decide, as he is still a bit stronger than Yang Guo I believe, and he has similarities with ZCS in that they both learned from a Great (Zhou Botong and Zhang Sanfeng respectively) for a few years specializing in soft and orthodox martial arts.

[Guo Xiang]

YLQ at end of ROCH is almost certainly stronger than Zhang. He was not much if any weaker than Huo Du, who was more than a match for the Quan Zhen Masters. The QZ Masters in turn should be around equal to the likes of Xie Xun and the other Guardians, and we all saw how easily Xie Xun could pummel Zhang Cuisan. Pre-16 YLQ is harder to decide, as he is still a bit stronger than Yang Guo I believe, and he has similarities with ZCS in that they both learned from a Great (Zhou Botong and Zhang Sanfeng respectively) for a few years specializing in soft and orthodox martial arts.

I get the impression that YLQ was better than Huodu who won only because he cheated.

[Ren Ying Ying]

YLQ at end of ROCH is almost certainly stronger than Zhang. He was not much if any weaker than Huo Du, who was more than a match for the Quan Zhen Masters. The QZ Masters in turn should be around equal to the likes of Xie Xun and the other Guardians, and we all saw how easily Xie Xun could pummel Zhang Cuisan. Pre-16 YLQ is harder to decide, as he is still a bit stronger than Yang Guo I believe, and he has similarities with ZCS in that they both learned from a Great (Zhou Botong and Zhang Sanfeng respectively) for a few years specializing in soft and orthodox martial arts.

wait...why would you equate a QZ master to Xie Xun?

[tape]

I get the impression that YLQ was better than Huodu who won only because he cheated.

Huodu wasn't using his fan techniques and probably other parts of his style for fear of recognition. I think he was underperforming in his fight because of that, and he was still holding his own very well. Though he did use under handed tactics when he blew out the lights, I get the impression he is on par or superior. But they are certainly close.

[tape]

wait...why would you equate a QZ master to Xie Xun?

Just from past discussions, and they seem to be on the same level from rough comparisons. The fastest comparison I can think of off the top of my head is that Yang Xiao + Yan Tianzheng is less than or equal to a Du Monk, and it takes 3 Du Monks with a formation to be slightly less than equal to a great like Wuji. So this makes 6-7 Yang Xiaos/Yan Tianzheng's in formation equal to a great. Sound familiar? Much like the 7 Quan Zhen masters using the Big Dipper formation to equal Huang Yaoshi.

It's a very rough comparison but the only way I can think to link them together directly.

[Ren Wo Xing]

There did not appear to be any significant synergistic benefit to Yang Xiao/Yin Tianzheng fighting together, whereas the Big Dipper formation provided a tremendous synergistic benefit. I think the Quanzhen disciples should be a significant notch beneath Xie Xun level fighters.

[tape]

There was no synergistic benefit, and they still needed two of them to to be slightly inferior to a Du Monk. Thus a Du Monk is about equal to say 2.2-2.5 Yang Xiao's/YTZ's.

So we have roughly 7 Yang Xiaos equal to roughly 3 Du Monks without formation since they were fighting 2v1.

If we assume the Demon Subduing Formation is roughly equal to the Big Dipper Formation, then 7 Yang Xiaos/3 Du Monks should be roughly equal to the Quan Zhen Masters is what I'm getting at.

[Extremer88]

I would say YLQ.

However, I feel that Zhang Cuishan has better potential as a martial artist. I always have this belief that he would have gone on to become a GREAT if he had more interest in martial arts, and that the tragic events involving him in HSDS didn't occur. Zhang Wuji does have some good genes of his father in his body.

[tape]

I don't think Zhang Cuisan would've made Great level. His intelligence/understanding was a tier above his brothers, but even when they reached their 40-50's they were still far far below a great and likely have been stagnating for a while. I just doubt he would have progressed that much more than his brothers, considering he was still well below his 2nd and oldest brother while he was active in Wulin for his 10 years or so. Maybe if he was equal to or slightly above Song Yuanqiao we could gather he has much greater potential, but he really hasn't progressed as fast as all the other characters who have reached great level that we've witnessed. (Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Wuji, Xiao Feng to an extant)

They all reached the top within a few years, while Zhang Cuisan was still scrubby relatively.

[muidi]

In the 3rd edition of HSDS it was stated that YLQ mastered all 18 stances of the Dragon Palms. Additionally he had to learn the Dog Beating Stick as the leader of the Beggar Clan. There is no doubt that YLQ was stronger than ZCS.

[PJ]

In the 3rd edition of HSDS it was stated that YLQ mastered all 18 stances of the Dragon Palms.

That happened after ROCH though.

Since we're comparing Yelu Qi in his 30s to Zhang Cuishan in his early 20s at the beginning of HSDS, Yelu should have the upper hand.

However, if we take the older Zhang Cuishan right before his death, he should be near Yelu's level, because it was said that his martial arts underwent significant improvements at Fire Ice Island and became much closer to Xie Xun's level than compared to 10 years ago.

I don't think Zhang Cuisan would've made Great level. His intelligence/understanding was a tier above his brothers, but even when they reached their 40-50's they were still far far below a great and likely have been stagnating for a while.

Actually, according to Zhang Cuishan's thought: 我武当派内功越练到后来，进境越快。The longer you have been cultivating Wudang's internal energy, the faster the rate of improvement. This means Song Yuanqiao, Yu Lianzhou, et al should improve at a faster rate in their 50s than in their 30s. Since Zhang Cuishan is the smartest of all the Wudang Heroes, he should attain the highest achievement and I'd say he had a chance of becoming a Great.

[tape]

When Zhang Cuisan first came back, he was a lot inferior to Yu Lianzhou due to his lack of training and practice. And Yu Lianzhou at that point was still below Miejue who in turn is only equal to Xie Xun roughly.

Even in their 50's, they were ridiculously underpowered compared to a Great. They were going completely defensive and using taichi, and Wuji, who is probably the worst Greats level fighter, was able to subdue them all rather easily.

[PJ]

If Zhang Cuishan kept up his training during the missing years, IMO he would have exceeded the level of his martial brothers. The gap between he and them would only get bigger as they practice Wudang internal energy, which is said to increase faster with time.

If we keep in mind that the rate of improvement increases with time (for Wudang internal energy), we can expect the Wudang Heroes to wield incredible improvement in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s (provided they live that long) -- at a faster rate than they improved in the story thus far. It's plausible that the best among them, Zhang Cuishan, might have attained Great level in his 70s/80s.

[Guo Xiang]

It's plausible that the best among them, Zhang Cuishan, might have attained Great level in his 70s/80s.

That's... very late.

[PJ]

That's... very late.

Actually, a lot of orthodox martial arts seem to be late blossomers, improving more later on, whereas the unorthodox ones--and this is a big reason why ppl go after them--yield better results in the short term, but improve less over time.

In Wudang's case, why it improves the most at old age, I reckon it's b/c Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts are most suited for old people. In real life, Taiji is considered an excellent self defense for old people, not so popular with the young crowd, and it should be true for Jin Yong's story as well.

[Ren Wo Xing]

RE rate of improvement, the same was said about Quanzhen internal energy, which is what Yelu Qi cultivated.

[PJ]

RE rate of improvement, the same was said about Quanzhen internal energy, which is what Yelu Qi cultivated.

I reckon it did its part to helped him eventually reach a level where he managed to master the full XL18Z, a feat unparalleled by any after him.

[tape]

We've seen the rate of improvement thing being cited, but like I said before we don't know if the rate is even considerable. If everybody improves 1% a year, and you start out at .6 then go to .61, .62, etc even 60 years later you'll be improving like 1.25%....sure it's more than the rest, but their years of improving at a higher rate make up for your eventual higher improvement rate.

Also, even at age 100 or so, Zhang Sanfeng's inner strength didn't really seem to surpass Wuji's. So his rate of improvement isn't necessarily even better than any of that Great's from the past, and he's a freaking hundred.

The Quan Zhen Master's were probably close to 100, and they were still pretty crappy even though they were relatively elite in their 40's and had the faster improvement thing going for them.

On a tangent, I don't think Zhang Cuisan had more talent than Yang Guo, as Cuisan's talent was only mentioned offhand by Zhang Sanfeng and we don't really see a lot of anecdotal evidence that he was super smart or anything, unlike Yang Guo. And I'm of the camp that thinks that if Yang Guo had not met the condor and HIS, he would not have reached true Great level either. Few people reach great with standard martial arts if they haven't reached it by their 30's and 40's it seems.

[shadow8899]

I would imagine that even before he became Leader of the Beggar Clan Yeh Lu Chai (he was the 3rd best fighter of his generation) was better than Guo Xiang who was better than Mei Jue who is equal to Xie Xun who is better than Zhang Cui San