Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

[Lucre]

hmm, just for the record, there are malay-christian, i knew personally of someone who converted to catholicism though he was raised muslim. he's a very pious man who is looking forward to a religious life actually.

[kidd]

bella25, in case you don't know. 'Jesus' has it's own Malay translation which is 'Isa'.

'Allah' is used for translation of the word 'GOD'.
So, the word 'Jesus' is never an issue and whether the RCC believe in Jesus or not is also never an issue.

hmm, just for the record, there are malay-christian, i knew personally of someone who converted to catholicism though he was raised muslim. he's a very pious man who is looking forward to a religious life actually.

It's more lax in Sabah and Sarawak, but, it's unheard of in West Malaysia. Does your friend convert unofficially or officially? Is your friend a Malaysian?

[Lucre]

bella25, in case you don't know. 'Jesus' has it's own Malay translation which is 'Isa'.

'Allah' is used for translation of the word 'GOD'.
So, the word 'Jesus' is never an issue and whether the RCC believe in Jesus or not is also never an issue.


It's more lax in Sabah and Sarawak, but, it's unheard of in West Malaysia. Does your friend convert unofficially or officially? Is your friend a Malaysian?

he's singaporean, and yes, he was baptised last year in a catholic church. but race = malay (he kept it a secret from his family though)

[kidd]

he's singaporean, and yes, he was baptised last year in a catholic church. but race = malay (he kept it a secret from his family though)

Singapore is different. It's in Malaysia that it's difficult to convert to other religion from Islam. The Malaysian law makes it so. You can't just convert whenever you want. If you are a Malaysian Muslim, you have your religion stated in your IC. You have to get approval from some authorities to deconvert and it's very difficult to get this approval.

Nearly all Malays (if not all) in Malaysia are born Muslim. So, what athlee says is correct. athlee is talking about the situation in Malaysia. This does not apply to other countries like Singapore and Indonesia where conversion from Islam is easier.

[athlee]

he's singaporean, and yes, he was baptised last year in a catholic church. but race = malay (he kept it a secret from his family though)

As per what kidd said, I am referring to Malaysia only. Malays are defined as Muslims at birth and there are laws against conversion (apostacy). I have yet to see a case where a Malay converted successfully (an example would be Azlina Jailani aka Lina Joy, if you want, you can do a search on her).

There are also plenty of lawsuits filed by non-Malay Muslims for conversion and generally they are rejected. These people converted for the sole reason of marriage (Muslims cannot marry non-Muslims in Malaysia) and when the marriage breaks down, they have no longer any reason to continue being Muslims. In fact, most of them had not even practiced the faith.

An example was a Chinese lady (can't remember her name of hand but she was from Penang and *maybe* with the surname Tan) who converted but continue to pray regularly at Chinese temples. Luckily for her, she was one of the few who managed to convert back because the court ruled that she had not practiced the faith at all and that the fault lies not with her but the religious authority who should have monitored and educated her.

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.ph...466&Itemid=199

[Lucre]

sorry maybe its cos i didnt read "malaysian-malay-christian".

i think muslim worldwide cannot marry non-muslim? dont think its just in malaysia.

As per what kidd said, I am referring to Malaysia only. Malays are defined as Muslims at birth and there are laws against conversion (apostacy). I have yet to see a case where a Malay converted successfully (an example would be Azlina Jailani aka Lina Joy, if you want, you can do a search on her).

There are also plenty of lawsuits filed by non-Malay Muslims for conversion and generally they are rejected. These people converted for the sole reason of marriage (Muslims cannot marry non-Muslims in Malaysia) and when the marriage breaks down, they have no longer any reason to continue being Muslims. In fact, most of them had not even practiced the faith.

An example was a Chinese lady (can't remember her name of hand but she was from Penang and *maybe* with the surname Tan) who converted but continue to pray regularly at Chinese temples. Luckily for her, she was one of the few who managed to convert back because the court ruled that she had not practiced the faith at all and that the fault lies not with her but the religious authority who should have monitored and educated her.

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.ph...466&Itemid=199

[kidd]

sorry maybe its cos i didnt read "malaysian-malay-christian".

i think muslim worldwide cannot marry non-muslim? dont think its just in malaysia.

Uh, athlee was not talking about the issue of 'muslim cannot marry non-muslim' being a unique case in Malaysia. He just gave a reason on why some non-muslim convert (which is for marriage) and why they want to deconvert later. The issue here is the near impossibility of muslim converting from Islam in Malaysia.

Is it really that hard to get the main of a comment? Why people keep focusing on the side points.

the main point of that whole article athlee posted is not about Lina Joy not being able to marry her non-muslim boyfriend. That article is about Lina Joy wanting to change religion and could not, thus she could not marry her boyfriend. But the focus is not 'Lina Joy cannot marry her boyfriend' but 'Lina Joy and the rest of Malaysian Muslim cannot freely change their religion from Islam'. It's about religious freedom.

[athlee]

sorry maybe its cos i didnt read "malaysian-malay-christian".

i think muslim worldwide cannot marry non-muslim? dont think its just in malaysia.

I think only Islamic countries would have this form of law in place. Surely you have seen or met couples who are of different faiths living happily together. I have never understood why religion should be an issue between couples.

[remember_Cedric]

I have never understood why religion should be an issue between couples.

I think, one of the possible problem is when the couple cannot agree with each other on which side of religion should the children believe in. Not to forget, different beliefs have different teaching and way to lead a life. It becomes difficult when the couple wouldn't compromise with each other (you know this crazy thing called 'ego-lism').

It's just like, a body with two heads; Head-one thinks left is the right path, whereas head-two thinks otherwise.

[kidd]

Actually, according to one book I read, a Muslim man can marry a Christian woman and the woman need not convert. But a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man. This is because the children follow the father's religion.

[athlee]

remember_Cedric: oh, I know what problems can pop up, I just don't understand why the parents insist on bringing it up and cannot compromise. What use is converting when it is only in name and not in truth or action? It is only a problem if you let it become one.

kidd: Is that legally in M'sia or is it quoted from the Quran or some imam (Muslim equivalent of priest)?

[kidd]

kidd: Is that legally in M'sia or is it quoted from the Quran or some imam (Muslim equivalent of priest)?

I don't know whether it's legal in Malaysia or not (I think no). I read it in a book about Islam. Was interest in knowing more about the religion last time.

Update; Just found out. This is not applicable in M'sia.

A non-Muslim must convert from his/ her religion to Islam in order for him/ her to marry a Muslim. He/ she must refer to the State Religious Department or seek help from an Imam at the nearest mosque in the area. After which, the same marriage procedures for Muslims apply.

Source: http://www.malaysia.gov.my/EN/Releva...NonMuslim.aspx

Found a Quran verse on this

The Quran in Sura 5:5 says:

. . . Likewise you are permitted to marry chaste believing women [Muslims] or chaste women among the people who were given the Scripture [Jews and Christians] . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 427)

Source:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Autho...d_marriage.htm

[Bei Rongkun]

reading quotations above make me think that this is for protection only, so that it will not fade a way by inter marital.

I wonder if this law does not exist then how will the religion will do in the future. which, lead me to think that the existance of this religion only survive because it's strickly law. anyone agree??

[athlee]

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...l-allah-ruling

written judgement by the judge for anyone interested.

[Lucre]

I think only Islamic countries would have this form of law in place. Surely you have seen or met couples who are of different faiths living happily together. I have never understood why religion should be an issue between couples.

considering that even religious differences could torn up families, friendships, especially when both parties are steep in their own views, religious difference between married couples might pose potential problems. although there are cases where both can be forgiving and willing to accept each other despite the differences and still be loving. It just take a bigger heart to resolve it.

for example, if a catholic marries a muslim, and by catholic obligations, the catholic want to raise their children catholics, and the muslim has the obligation to raised their children muslims, so then who will compromise?

As religion is more often than not, a guideline to a person's lifestyle, conflicting religious views do pose alot of problems in marriage ~ when we know that even two people of same religious & cultural background and still fight with whatever's differences left betwen them, what more of those who had even more differences to begin with?

[Guo Xiang]

considering that even religious differences could torn up families, friendships, especially when both parties are steep in their own views, religious difference between married couples might pose potential problems. although there are cases where both can be forgiving and willing to accept each other despite the differences and still be loving. It just take a bigger heart to resolve it.

for example, if a catholic marries a muslim, and by catholic obligations, the catholic want to raise their children catholics, and the muslim has the obligation to raised their children muslims, so then who will compromise?

As religion is more often than not, a guideline to a person's lifestyle, conflicting religious views do pose alot of problems in marriage ~ when we know that even two people of same religious & cultural background and still fight with whatever's differences left betwen them, what more of those who had even more differences to begin with?

Let the kid choose without deliberate interference. That's the fairest method.

[athlee]

Let the kid choose without deliberate interference. That's the fairest method.

I agree, teach him both and when he is of age, let him choose. If you had this problem, why bother getting married without compromising first

[Lucre]

Let the kid choose without deliberate interference. That's the fairest method.

well, we all know children are most easily influenced by their parents =p in the event their parents squabbled day and night, chances are, kids will squabble too, and not likely to judge correctly, higher chance of them rejecting both religion.

as for why i mentioned catholic & muslim was that, being a catholic, it is a 'moral duty' to raise your child catholic (no matter the religion of the spouse, and if the catholic intends to marry in church, the couple has to undergo several pre-marital counciling sessions with the priest, and one of the clause posed on the non-catholic spouse is that he or she promised to raised the child in the faith....as and when with the marital preparation and all that, if the couple decided they are not ready to commit to all the stuff they have been made known to commit, they are usually not adviced to get married, until they have soughted out their issues. however, not everyone listens to advices. ^_~)

and i believed the muslim had an equivalent believe (although the muslims i knew usually make the spouse convert before marriage)

[Lucre]

I agree, teach him both and when he is of age, let him choose. If you had this problem, why bother getting married without compromising first

well, many young couples lacked common sense before entering matrimony, no kidding! its easy to say "why get married when....."

but despite all that, you still see people jumping into marriages for a whole lot of 'incorrect reasons'. and then they regretted, argue and divorce.

[athlee]

if the kid rejects both religion, then it just goes to show that neither is suitable for him/her. Religion should be entered into freely because you believe, not because of your parents.

As for marriage and divorce, it is why I have always thought the opposition to gay marriages on the grounds that marriage is sacred and god-sent to be pure hypocrisy. If they really believe in the sanctity of marriage, why on earth are they not protesting and pushing for divorce to be outlawed (I am going off topic here, so I better stop).