Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

[Lucre]

if the kid rejects both religion, then it just goes to show that neither is suitable for him/her. Religion should be entered into freely because you believe, not because of your parents.

As for marriage and divorce, it is why I have always thought the opposition to gay marriages on the grounds that marriage is sacred and god-sent to be pure hypocrisy. If they really believe in the sanctity of marriage, why on earth are they not protesting and pushing for divorce to be outlawed (I am going off topic here, so I better stop).

you're right, in fact the Roman Catholic Church does teaches 'no divorce' ~ no matter the circumstances. The only exception being one did not enter into the marriage out of own free-will, and in this case, the marriage can be annulled, but not considered as divorce. Infidelity of spouse is not a reason for divorce. Then again I know many Catholics who did not abide to the rules either.

[kidd]

you're right, in fact the Roman Catholic Church does teaches 'no divorce' ~ no matter the circumstances. The only exception being one did not enter into the marriage out of own free-will, and in this case, the marriage can be annulled, but not considered as divorce. Infidelity of spouse is not a reason for divorce. Then again I know many Catholics who did not abide to the rules either.

What about domestic abuse? Is that a valid reason?

Sorry, off-topic liao.

[athlee]

you're right, in fact the Roman Catholic Church does teaches 'no divorce' ~ no matter the circumstances. The only exception being one did not enter into the marriage out of own free-will, and in this case, the marriage can be annulled, but not considered as divorce. Infidelity of spouse is not a reason for divorce. Then again I know many Catholics who did not abide to the rules either.

ah, but they did not protest and make it against the law to divorce

So, unless it is illegal to get a divorce in Vatican City, I say they are all hypocrites

[remember_Cedric]

I was told by my friend of this and I'm uncertain if someone brought this up in here....

The bombing actually turned out to be a blessing for one of the churches. Part of the church is actually going wasted and the church has decided to gets funds to revamp/renovate that part of the church (I don't think it's for the whole church) since that part is rundown. However, they didn't have sufficient funds to proceed with that plan. The bombing incident actually "helped" that church as the bomb fired off that part which was rundown and keeping the rest of the (wanted) parts of the church barely damaged.

So the church were able to get an insurance claim then proceed with the renov plan, thankfully. Things happened for a reason, I believe.

[Guo Xiang]

What about domestic abuse? Is that a valid reason?

Sorry, off-topic liao.

Since the only acceptable reason is forced marriage, I don't think domestic abuse will give it a go.

[kidd]

Response from a minister in the Home Ministry Department.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...269&sec=nation

Well, I guess the response is reasonable.

[athlee]

Response from a minister in the Home Ministry Department.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...269&sec=nation

Well, I guess respond is reasonable.

This is purely political to avoid potential political backlash from Sabah and Sarawak since all the protest is actually only happening in West M'sia. Nasri says a lot of things, but a lot of times, is immediately rejected by Muhyiddin (the Deputy PM for those who don't know).

Read this:

http://themalaysianinsider.com/index...ite-over-allah

From now on, with all due respect to my Muslim friends, I will refer to A***h as 'the five letter word that cannot be printed or spoken'. I have no choice as I do not want to be sued for treason or whatever.

[Guo Xiang]

From now on, with all due respect to my Muslim friends, I will refer to A***h as 'the five letter word that cannot be printed or spoken'. I have no choice as I do not want to be sued for treason or whatever.

Just use the word, athlee. If they react strongly then just say "that's why people keeps thinking Muslims = terrorists. Because of this kind of BS attitude from Muslims like you".

[kidd]

Just use the word, athlee. If they react strongly then just say "that's why people keeps thinking Muslims = terrorists. Because of this kind of BS attitude from Muslims like you".

Don't get athlee in trouble by giving advice like this.

[Lucre]

ah, but they did not protest and make it against the law to divorce

So, unless it is illegal to get a divorce in Vatican City, I say they are all hypocrites

Well, Catholics who divorce and re-married outside the church are considered to be living in adultery, and hence sinning. To a believer, living in sin can be more devastating than breaking the law. It all boils down to whether you believe or not.

Catholic may live separately from their spouse under circumstances; after all you cannot force the other party to 'not divorce' but one may not re-marry, which will be considered as 'adultery'

Actually, its not so much of RCC trying to force secular laws to disallow homosexual marriage, but more like the secular forcing down homosexual marriages into everybodys throat, and the RCC has the right to say no to it. I know theres a bunch of Gay Catholics who sincerely believe they can petition for gay-marriages be approved in church ~

[Lucre]

Since the only acceptable reason is forced marriage, I don't think domestic abuse will give it a go.

just to add on, 'forced marriage' does not narrowly mean being tied up and make to go through the marriage ~ for example, if a person before marriage realised that the fiance/e was not really suitable, but felt obligated to marry him/her due to social pressure, or 'saving' face ~ is in actual fact, not marrying out of free will either. To get an annullment, one has to justify that one did not marry out of freewill ~ though investigations than take a bloody long time. =p

And yes, domestic violence does not make divorce legitimate. However for personal protection, they may live separately.

The deal is, before marrying, please be very very sure you know whom you're really marrying. Most abusive people would showed signs early on in the relationship, before marriage. Usually, most still go through despite already knowing the violent tendency.

[athlee]

Guo Xiang:

To use the word outside of context is to invite charges of treason, or so it is claimed. I don't really know what they will use, probably ISA, which allows for detention without trial at the discretion of the Home Minister. So to be on the safe side, I will just go for the phrase 'the five letter word that cannot be printed or spoken' or in short 'those five letter words'

Lucre:

Now why would living in sin be bad? I thought as long as you believe in Christ and you confess your sins, you are homefree. Please tell me that is the case. My plan is to live a life of sin until just before I die and then I will convert to Christianity and confess all my sins so that I may bask in his glory

[Lucre]

Lucre:

Now why would living in sin be bad? I thought as long as you believe in Christ and you confess your sins, you are homefree. Please tell me that is the case. My plan is to live a life of sin until just before I die and then I will convert to Christianity and confess all my sins so that I may bask in his glory

to live in sin implies that the relationship with god is broken, and nobody knows when they are going to die, so your plan might not work as well as you'd like. plus, your wish to lead a sinful life is not a demonstration of true repentance, and without true repentance, there is no real forgiveness, so your plan couldnt work either.

confession is not so much of doing it because you sin, nor about giving an account of all the 'sins' you have committed, but to maintain a relationship with God our Father.

just like when you fall in love with someone, you 'confess' your love to him or her.

the problem with people is, many often misunderstood, or bend around the rules that was originally placed for a good purpose, and continue to misintepret it to suit their own ways.

living in sin is a tragic feeling for one who genuinely believed. if you're a non-believer, why should you even think of confession? there is no relationship established between you and God in the first place. no relationship = no chance for broken relationship. hence, non-catholics do not need to go for 'confession' (although the better word to use is, sacrament of reconciliation)

[Ren Wo Xing]

to live in sin implies that the relationship with god is broken, and nobody knows when they are going to die, so your plan might not work as well as you'd like. plus, your wish to lead a sinful life is not a demonstration of true repentance, and without true repentance, there is no real forgiveness, so your plan couldnt work either.

confession is not so much of doing it because you sin, nor about giving an account of all the 'sins' you have committed, but to maintain a relationship with God our Father.

just like when you fall in love with someone, you 'confess' your love to him or her.

the problem with people is, many often misunderstood, or bend around the rules that was originally placed for a good purpose, and continue to misintepret it to suit their own ways.

living in sin is a tragic feeling for one who genuinely believed. if you're a non-believer, why should you even think of confession? there is no relationship established between you and God in the first place. no relationship = no chance for broken relationship. hence, non-catholics do not need to go for 'confession' (although the better word to use is, sacrament of reconciliation)

I think he just means he'll try to time it so he establishes that relationship just before death.

[Lucre]

I think he just means he'll try to time it so he establishes that relationship just before death.

the problem is, this 'thought' is 'sinful' ~ so..as long as the 'sin' lingers ~ hes better off hoping he 'die' immediately after baptism (if he hasnt had one yet)

[athlee]

Lucre: to quote you, "to live in sin is to imply that the relationship with god is broken".

At this point in time I have no relation with god, and therefore it cannot be broken. I am probably described as a heathen right now. I have not read the bible fully (a lot of it but not fully) and thus I have yet to embrace god and by extension, I will argue that I have no knowledge of what is sin in god's eyes until the day of my baptism

My problem now is to decide which religion is right. I really hope it isn't Buddhism since I cannot claim ignorance of it

P.S. the ath in my name is short for Atheist

[kidd]

My problem now is to decide which religion is right. I really hope it isn't Buddhism since I cannot claim ignorance of it

Having no knowledge would not excuse you of your sin in Buddhism. You have to pay whether you have knowledge or not. It's the law of the universe. That's how Karma works.

[remember_Cedric]

Now why would living in sin be bad?

Let me ask you this instead: Do you agree with this >> "a fruitful outcome requires hardwork"? Is it easier if you don't have to abide rules and regulation, and do things at your convenience?

Your question appear (to me) to have a similar effect as this "Why is smoking bad? I feel destress when I smoke." or, "why do I have to study? Some highly paid jobs outthere don't require a degree too!".

I thought as long as you believe in Christ and you confess your sins, you are homefree.

Can you actually live at ease (with conscience) when you break someone's heart and hurt them? Please tell me that is not the case. O_O

[Lucre]

Lucre: to quote you, "to live in sin is to imply that the relationship with god is broken".

At this point in time I have no relation with god, and therefore it cannot be broken. I am probably described as a heathen right now. I have not read the bible fully (a lot of it but not fully) and thus I have yet to embrace god and by extension, I will argue that I have no knowledge of what is sin in god's eyes until the day of my baptism

My problem now is to decide which religion is right. I really hope it isn't Buddhism since I cannot claim ignorance of it

P.S. the ath in my name is short for Atheist

you're absolutely right on that part. you cannot break a relationship if you hadn't even had one. thats what i meant "living in the state of sin" is really within the context of christians, to which, the believers are christian. if 'your beliefs' are not so, then you ought to follow your religion's prescribed ways of living. that's not what RCC can snoop their nose into, unless they are challenged by others to change their rules, which is a different matter already.

as for atheists, i am really puzzled why they should bother with what the religious thinks. since atheists do not believe in God(s), then they most probably believe ther is no eternal life, or life after death. Since they don't even belieev in life after death, why be too bothered by where their souls are going? For atheists, that issue should have been very easily solved.no God, no after life, no burn in hell. whatever you do isnt 'living in sin" but your own lifestyle ~ just that some lifestyles are less considerate than others.

therefore, you obviously dont see anything wrong about living in sin, because you can't sin in your definition of beliefs. you have not even believe in the definition of sin either. But of course, from my point of view, there is sin, and we leave it to God to judge.

ignorance is not an excuse to commit mortal sin either~but if you aint a christian, you shouldnt be asking a christian what it means to lead a christian life, unless you are considering to convert, or you at least believed in the merit of the teachings. just like, would you go to a lawyer asking for advice about your health anymore than taking your sick pet to the plumber?

bottom line, if you do not believe in christ, you don't have to worry too much about what the church says. but out of christian moral duty, i shall offer the invitation of letting more people know about Christ, and what he teaches. The choice of believing it or not is really your free-will.

sometimes knowing God, or alot of it, is only information. It is difficult to 'convince' unless one 'experienced' the Love of God. It's as difficult as convincing how beautiful the rainbow is, to a blind man who has never seen anything since birth. The blind man knew from the scientific point of view cos you tell him, but he would have to either take your wrod for it, or doubt you, whether or not rainbows are beautiful.

[athlee]

kidd: I know, that's why I was hoping it isn't the One

remember_Cedric: I live with my own set of rules which is 'live and let live'. I don't go out to hurt people as long as people don't come in to hurt me. As for the living in sin part, lots of things are considered as sin by religion (Christians, Muslims, etc) but not on my part. Examples are like divorce (as per Lucre's post), homosexuality or bisexuality (hell, even just sex for the sake of having sex is a sin), lying (while I consider myself generally truthful, I have no qualms about lying if it avoids a turn for the worse), eating meat/beef/pork/alcohol, etc.

On breaking someone's heart, I don't go out to break people's heart, but here's a what if scenario for you:

If someone you are absolutely not attracted to insist that you are their one and only, what do you do? If you reject them, you break their heart, but if you don't reject them, what can you do? For some people there is no such thing as being let down gently. Are you going to agonise over the fact that you don't love them? Or are you going to just to be with them out of pity?

Lucre: It is not that I care what the religious think, seriously. I just like to read and have read lots of things including parts of the bible. I admit that I had an ulterior motive when I read the bible, ala 'know thy enemy'

There are a lot of people who insist on preaching to me despite the fact that I was definitely not interested. So I got fed up and started reading to protect myself. There are some interesting questions that a lot of people struggle to answer

Oh, and last I check, wasn't hell (Christianity) originally defined as the absence of god? There isn't any burning or anything to that effect, at least not that I can recall being refered to in the parts of the bible that I read.

Actually, its not so much of RCC trying to force secular laws to disallow homosexual marriage, but more like the secular forcing down homosexual marriages into everybodys throat, and the RCC has the right to say no to it. I know theres a bunch of Gay Catholics who sincerely believe they can petition for gay-marriages be approved in church ~

Umm, RCC isn't saying no to it, they are saying it is a threat to creation. As for those immoral and unnatural Catholics (In the Pope's own words in the 3rd site below), all I can say is that they are truly strong in the faith, misguided as it seems.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1225818224658

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1786404.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3108349.stm