Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

[remember_Cedric]

Well, the way you put it was very misleading.

So, how or what was misleading?

You said it was deleted, so there was an implication that you no longer have that comment at hand to duplicate.

Right after that you went into the second paragraph so it looks like it's directed at me. And when combined with the word "Princess", it just sounds offensive.

Does it feel more real when you were (probably) taken back by that para? I would love to bring you into situation and explain that under what circumstance would God help someone actually - He knows when.

Where and when did she call me that? I must have missed it.

Ok, my badness, I shouldn't drag her in. But I remember you definitely use that term on yourself. Whatever! Blah! It wasn't meant to be offensive, you know?

[Lucre]

Kidd:

Adam and Eve not only gain wisdom and experience suffering. Their immortality were also taken away. Uh, that's not punishment?

If you have to view this as punishment, at least see that God always give us an opportunity to go back to him. He didn't just exterminate Adam and Eve, but give them the freedom to go to the world they choose, and a chance to turn over a new leaf. Rather than repenting, the choice they make land them in mortal realm, and God later promised them a savior, which he delivered in his time, his son Jesus Christ.

And it's not even a fair choice. God never said "I'll give you 2 choice. You obey me, you will remain ignorant, but, you will be forever happy and live forever. If you disobey me, you will gain wisdom, but also have to go through suffering, life and death and all your descendants will have to suffer for your disobedience."

It's not an informed choice.

Actually what God said was this:

Gn2:16-17 The LORD God gave man this order: "You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
It is fair, he gave them a firm warning about DEATH, but when they actually disobeyed him, they didn't get instantaneous death. It was actually not about wanting to punish them, but God wanted Adam and Eve to understand the consequences of their action, and he actively seek to establish a relationship with us.

And like athlee said, what about the freewill and choice of Adam and Eve's descendants?

Is having the children bear the sins of the father fair?

Yes, God give us freewill, which means we are all one part of the community. When one of us did something, if affects the whole community. Living in this world, we already know that our actions often have grave consequences on other people around us, and it is true since the days of Adam and Eve. God give you and me freewill, as well as the next guy on the block, as well as a couple of psychopaths that ruined other people's life. It's not actually all that easy, unless we learn to understand the action of one person may either elevate our entire community's soul, or contaminate it.

Adam and Eve was actually more of a story that illustrates us men, who had a tendency to always turn away from God, do our own things. Then when we figured what we do isn't always the best, and we go back to God, and he will always take us in. It isn't so much of what Adam did, but what each and everyone of us will inherently do. By saying God doesn't exist, and choosing not to believe, we are already committing what Adam and Eve did, and hence we face the same consequences.

It is a true story of men, but it is not a historical account. If Adam and Eve are the first persons, and they eventually had sons, and their sons married wives and have children. Where did the wives came from? God didn't particularly encouraged 'incest'. Rather than saying they are the first man and women, it was more like there were plenty more, but theirs is a representation of what men (Adam) and women (Eve) behaved.

Some sadists like to torture their victim first instead of instantly killing them.
I'm not saying God is a sadist. Just showing that this POV is refutable.

I understand, and God isn't a sadist, and I can say that with certainty. Although if you're upset with how things goes you can always argue with Him~

'Willing to forgive' does not equate to 'not blaming'.

"Blaming" sounded alot like being spiteful and full of hate, which isn't where God is coming from. I was perhaps trying to illustrate my point that He is a loving God, and as a human, I have finite resources, brain-juice even, but once again, it is my moral obligation to speak for Him, because of the good He has done for me, and for the whole world.

How many stars are there in space? Don't you agree that whomever this mysterious force is that created the universe, is incredible? In my faith, I know it's God. You may choose to believe if that force is nothing at all, a plate of spaghetti, or whatever you choose to believe in.

Athlee:

Lucre: I understand free will, but it is because of this concept that I say god is not consistent. So, Adam and Eve ate an apple, they commited sin out of their own free will. Punish them, yes!!! But what about the rest of us? We did not make that decision, therefore did not exercise our free will in deciding whether to eat or not. By punishing us (or in your words, give us a chance to experience the mortal realm), he has removed our ability to choose on whether to eat that apple or not. Given a choice, I definitely would have chosen immortality. Therefore by condemning us to mortality, he has taken away my free will

I'm not sure if my reply to Kidd above addressed your concerns, if you would like to understand more of how I see it you may feel free to highlight the issue. If you aren't particularly interested and preferred to end it here, that's absolutely fine with me.

As for the 'if you repent' part, the bible says little about those who had yet to learn of Christ for whatever reason (death at infancy, people who had never seen or heard of the bible, etc). How to repent if you don't know you have to repent? Also, I don't think it address what happens to those who died before Christ came. How to have him bear our sins if we died before he was born

The old understanding has always been 'baptism' washed away the original sin that we carried since birth, inherited since the time of Adam. Well, if you read what I'd said above, to take this further, Adam is pretty much a representation of us humans, who with finite understanding, and lack of perfection, is quite easily misled by the Evil one. In baptism, we are washed away of our original sin, and inserted into the community, entering into a relationship with God. We are thus given that responsibility to keep ourselves away from sin, because our individual sin(s) affected the overall holiness of the community, because we are part of that community.

How do you repent if you do not know you have to repent? Many non-Christians who never had the opportunity to know God would not have the chance to know the truth ~ and in a sense, it is 'harder' since there is no correct guideline to obey, yet, many instances, non-Christians have shown to be very good people, so much so it seemed like God has touched them in His ways. We do not say that a person must be baptised to go to heaven, but that one who actually does what Jesus had taught.

Mathew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

On Christ, before he came down from Heaven, none of the souls who died were able to enter heaven, but when Christ have redeemed us, the key to the kingdom of heaven, is now available.

[Lucre]

Well, the way you put it was very misleading.


You said it was deleted, so there was an implication that you no longer have that comment at hand to duplicate.

Right after that you went into the second paragraph so it looks like it's directed at me. And when combined with the word "Princess", it just sounds offensive.


Where and when did she call me that? I must have missed it.

Maybe she meant those days when I call you Neko-hime? I'm not sure. I tend to think I used the term 'hime' rather than the english word 'princess'.

[athlee]

Lucre:

I don't have a copy of the bible with me so I can't be sure, but wasn't it stated that Adam's sons and daughters married and had more kids? I am pretty sure the ones who married each other were named, but off hand I can't recall who. There was no encouragement for incest but neither was it discouraged

You don't seem to have answered the question by kidd "Is having the children bear the sins of the father fair?" I am also interested in this.

On Christ, before he came down from Heaven, none of the souls who died were able to enter heaven, but when Christ have redeemed us, the key to the kingdom of heaven, is now available.

So the poor souls before Christ was all damned for things for the sins of their fathers with no hope of redemption?

If you aren't particularly interested and preferred to end it here, that's absolutely fine with me.

Oh, I am having a wonderful time on this topic, so the choice is actually yours on whether to end it here. Of course, one of the mods might actually decide to end it for us as we are far out of topic

I absolutely dislike people who practice 'do as I say, not as I do' and unfortunately, the god in the bible falls under this category with things like

'Deuteronomy 7:13
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. '

follows here's a plague for you to play with.

[Guo Xiang]

So, how or what was misleading?

Why are you even asking. You quoted the answer.

Does it feel more real when you were (probably) taken back by that para? I would love to bring you into situation and explain that under what circumstance would God help someone actually - He knows when.

No thanks. I'm actually getting quite offended by your God; or rather, how you presented Him to be. Is leaning more towards Catholism with every single religious conversation I'm having with you.

Ok, my badness, I shouldn't drag her in. But I remember you definitely use that term on yourself. Whatever! Blah! It wasn't meant to be offensive, you know?

I'm not getting defensive over her, you know. But if you are going to mention Lucre you'd better back it up, right?

I don't remember using the term. Even if I did, it's strange how you never addressed me as "Princess" until that point, using it along a comment that you described as a SLAM.

[Lucre]

Athlee:

I don't have a copy of the bible with me so I can't be sure, but wasn't it stated that Adam's sons and daughters married and had more kids? I am pretty sure the ones who married each other were named, but off hand I can't recall who. There was no encouragement for incest but neither was it discouraged

I was trying to illustrate my point that Adam and Eve are not really the 'first and only persons' and that the story isn't so much about WE having to bear the SINS of Adam and Eve, but that Adam and Eve is essentially US.

You don't seem to have answered the question by kidd "Is having the children bear the sins of the father fair?" I am also interested in this.

Look to what I state about Adam and Eve. But I think it is probably insufficient for you, so I shall put it in this way.

Every one of us is connected, it's like, one guy wantonly abused his freewill, and drive when he is drunk. Then he knocks down another innocent pedestrian. Is this fair?

Children bearing the sins of the father, is as fair as the above. This is my personal take on the issue, so you know I'm not quoting the bible.

So the poor souls before Christ was all damned for things for the sins of their fathers with no hope of redemption?

I didn't say that. I merely implied the doorway to heaven was locked before Christ came. After the door was unlocked, can we not assumed souls who died before Christ might have the same chance to get into heaven. On the other hand, whether the souls of those after Christ go to heaven or not, we do not know either, but we have the opportunity.

And besides, why do we assume the souls before Christ came burn in hell just because they aren't in heaven? They might be sticking around purgatory, and waiting for their time to get to heaven when they are ready.

Further illustrate my take on this, Heaven, hell and purgatory are more like the state of the soul than a physical place. Therefore, being in heaven is being completely in union with God (one can only achieve such means by being the fully obedient child), Hell is where one totally rejects God (by that I do refer to those who fully reject God despite knowing God ~ I do not lump most atheist in this group because the human soul has so much restrictions they may not make the most informed choice. Many of those who did not believe in God simply disbelief because there is no 'true experiences' with God, and hence it is not a prerequite for eternal hellstate)

I absolutely dislike people who practice 'do as I say, not as I do' and unfortunately, the god in the bible falls under this category with things like

'Deuteronomy 7:13
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. '

follows here's a plague for you to play with.

Of course. People who 'do as I say' but doesn't even do what they say, are known as hypocrites. As far as possible, we are called to avoid that type of lifestyle. But when we do things that are incorrect, do we blame it on ignorance of knowing right and wrong, or we simply insist we are right and whine?

[athlee]

I was trying to illustrate my point that Adam and Eve are not really the 'first and only persons' and that the story isn't so much about WE having to bear the SINS of Adam and Eve, but that Adam and Eve is essentially US.

Ah, good to meet someone who doesn't take the bible literally
But I was only pointing out this because you said god doesn't encourage incest. Yet the bible clearly points out incest, there is no indication of encouragement or discouragement on this point.

Every one of us is connected, it's like, one guy wantonly abused his freewill, and drive when he is drunk. Then he knocks down another innocent pedestrian. Is this fair?

Children bearing the sins of the father, is as fair as the above. This is my personal take on the issue, so you know I'm not quoting the bible.

No, it isn't fair and that is the point I, and probably kidd, want to make, that it isn't fair. That's why the law punishes the drunkard and not the pedestrian

I didn't say that. I merely implied the doorway to heaven was locked before Christ came. After the door was unlocked, can we not assumed souls who died before Christ might have the same chance to get into heaven. On the other hand, whether the souls of those after Christ go to heaven or not, we do not know either, but we have the opportunity.

And besides, why do we assume the souls before Christ came burn in hell just because they aren't in heaven? They might be sticking around purgatory, and waiting for their time to get to heaven when they are ready.

Okay, I am willing to move on from this part since I just wanted to know your thoughts on this. Too many people (Muslim/Christians) jump to this assumption that if you are not of the faith, you will burn in hell and they make damn sure you know it.

Of course. People who 'do as I say' but doesn't even do what they say, are known as hypocrites. As far as possible, we are called to avoid that type of lifestyle. But when we do things that are incorrect, do we blame it on ignorance of knowing right and wrong, or we simply insist we are right and whine?

Neither, I simply acknowledge that it is incorrect and move on. But this doesn't address the issue of god doing one thing while preaching another.

[yittz]

Ba, can't be bothered reading the last two pages. Here's my question:

What is free will?

If God is all knowing. Surely he must have known that Satan is going to disguise as a snake to trick adam and eve. Surely he must have known Satan will succeed. Surely he must have known the apple will be plucked. Surely he would have known that adam and eve will be condemned to mortality. So how much free will did adam and eve have, given God already knew they will fail.

If God is all skillful, why didn't he design adam and eve to be resistant to the selling power of Satan in the first place.

If God is so kind as to give us free will, then why create a book in the form of a bible, with rigid rules that if not followed will result in harsh consequences. I do not call it free will, if you either choose to not to sin and follow a suffocating way of life, or you going to burn in hell.

[remember_Cedric]

Maybe she meant those days when I call you Neko-hime? I'm not sure. I tend to think I used the term 'hime' rather than the english word 'princess'.

Dang! You're quick!

Why are you even asking. You quoted the answer.

No thanks. I'm actually getting quite offended by your God; or rather, how you presented Him to be. Is leaning more towards Catholism with every single religious conversation I'm having with you.

I'm not getting defensive over her, you know. But if you are going to mention Lucre you'd better back it up, right?

If you're leaning towards Catho, why do you even bother to quote me?

I don't remember using the term. Even if I did, it's strange how you never addressed me as "Princess" until that point, using it along a comment that you described as a SLAM.

Ok, my apologies that the word came in at a wrong time.

[athlee]

remember_Cedric: just curious, what religion or sect are you anyway?

[Guo Xiang]

If you're leaning towards Catho, why do you even bother to quote me?

See, this is what I mean. You don't even seem to like the idea of dialogues between people of different ideas.

You have quoted a number of people who happen not to be of your same sect (for lack of a better word) too, including in this thread. So why ask me?

[remember_Cedric]

remember_Cedric: just curious, what religion

Horribly backslided Christian, still.

or sect are you anyway?

Xiao Yao Pai?

[athlee]

Horribly backslided Christian, still.



Xiao Yao Pai?

hmm, I am pretty sure XY wasn't a Christian sect

DY and XZ was definitely Buddhist, and since the other XY people's religion was not stated and XZ did become the leader, I can safely say that, if you want to place a religion on them, it is a Buddhist religion

[remember_Cedric]

hmm, I am pretty sure XY wasn't a Christian sect

DY and XZ was definitely Buddhist, and since the other XY people's religion was not stated and XZ did become the leader, I can safely say that, if you want to place a religion on them, it is a Buddhist religion

I'll preach to them and make them convert to Christian.

[athlee]

You might have a chance with DY considering the fact that he gets obsessed easily, but no chance with XZ. Not unless you can find another Dream Girl for him

But even if you got DY, all someone has to do is give him a copy of any other religion and he will get obsessed with that instead, so you are going to be fighting a losing battle.

[Lucre]

Athlee:

Ah, good to meet someone who doesn't take the bible literally
But I was only pointing out this because you said god doesn't encourage incest. Yet the bible clearly points out incest, there is no indication of encouragement or discouragement on this point.

Although we understand that everything in the bible is true, but we must take into consideration that they were written by different people, of various era and culture. For example, if I'm deeply in love and writing to my lover, I might took a poetic stanze, talking about the beautiful weather, how my heart longs for you, the birds are singing sweetly, the sun's ray etc.. well you get the picture? Now take for another instance, a CNN reporter...he probably is also living in the same area as I am, but I doubt he would report the situation the way I do.

Sometimes we have to take it into account whom the intended recipient the book was addressed to, combined with the writer's cultural background, we can infer very different understanding of the scripture, then chewing down everything literally.

No, it isn't fair and that is the point I, and probably kidd, want to make, that it isn't fair. That's why the law punishes the drunkard and not the pedestrian

Yep, I see where you're coming from, and I told you where i stand on this opinion.

But this doesn't address the issue of god doing one thing while preaching another.

I'm not mentally capable yet, or at least the human civilization has yet to equip me with the knowledge of handling certain issues about God, though I fully believe God does exactly what he preaches, and in my opinion, he had never been inconsistant with his promises. I guess that is where faith comes in.

Yittz:

What is free will?


If God is all knowing. Surely he must have known that Satan is going to disguise as a snake to trick adam and eve. Surely he must have known Satan will succeed. Surely he must have known the apple will be plucked. Surely he would have known that adam and eve will be condemned to mortality. So how much free will did adam and eve have, given God already knew they will fail.

If God is all skillful, why didn't he design adam and eve to be resistant to the selling power of Satan in the first place.

If God is so kind as to give us free will, then why create a book in the form of a bible, with rigid rules that if not followed will result in harsh consequences. I do not call it free will, if you either choose to not to sin and follow a suffocating way of life, or you going to burn in hell.

My understanding of it is that, free will is the ability to think for ourselves, and choose to act in our best interests, given any situation. At no circumstances are we 'controlled' by someone else, reduced to mere puppets that cannot function without a puppet master pushing our every move.

No matter how constraining the situation is, we are still able to think for ourselves, and choose what to think, or do.

However, God did not grant only ME, or YOu freewill. He granted it to the whole humankind. Some of the humans decide to oppress other humans, hence other humans may sseemed to lose 'freewill' because they are being oppressed by the other higher ones who exercised their freewill to control others.

Now, putting it in simple terms, plenty of animals have stuff like 'instincts'. They knew what they need to do for survival, and will react to it. They have mating seasons, whereby when its time to mate, they will do it. Humans, who have free will, has the ability to resist carnal urges. They wouldnt just mate because they want to, they can say no to it. That's not the free will many animals have.

God is said to have made us man in His image, so we shared with God some wonderful 'powers' such as procreation (the ability to create) and also freewill (we are able to do what pleases us, and not programmed to behave exactly as what he would like ~ I think that is what started the whole problem. HE could have make things easier by making us totally programmable. But he wanted to show us love, and what more love is there, by granting us total ability to think for ourselves?)

As for 'burning in hell', the only ones that we can say with certainty that are in heaven are the saints and the angels, whilst the rest of the souls may still be in purgatory, until they are ready to be with God, and they will go to heaven. Eternal hell is perhaps the state where one despite knowing the fullness of God, still rejects him. On this note I would like to point out that this statement does not refer to non-christians. It can apply even to baptised christians, and may perhaps exclude non-christians who were 'touched' by God in their ways, as evidenced by their way of life.

[athlee]

My understanding of it is that, free will is the ability to think for ourselves, and choose to act in our best interests, given any situation. At no circumstances are we 'controlled' by someone else, reduced to mere puppets that cannot function without a puppet master pushing our every move.

Yet, the claim that god is omniscience, omnipresent and omnipotent causes me to argue that if someone, I don't care who, is beyond time and knows everything, then we are all merely characters in one very long book. From this, I can only draw upon 2 conclusions, either we have no free will despite all claims, or that god is sadistic and likes to see suffering (just look around you, everywhere there are people suffering whether manmade or otherwise). Because if he was omniscience, he would have know from the time he created us and the fruit of knowledge that a lot of people will suffer for no reason at all.

Now, putting it in simple terms, plenty of animals have stuff like 'instincts'. They knew what they need to do for survival, and will react to it. They have mating seasons, whereby when its time to mate, they will do it. Humans, who have free will, has the ability to resist carnal urges. They wouldnt just mate because they want to, they can say no to it. That's not the free will many animals have.

You seem to equate free will with some form of intelligence and imply that animals are not intelligent and bound only by instinct. I would point out a lot of animals does things that are not as a result of what one would term animal instincts.

I'm not mentally capable yet, or at least the human civilization has yet to equip me with the knowledge of handling certain issues about God, though I fully believe God does exactly what he preaches, and in my opinion, he had never been inconsistant with his promises. I guess that is where faith comes in.

And unfortunately, this appears to be a common stone wall I normally encounter that ends discussion on religion since there is nothing to discuss if we have to have faith and believe without knowledge/proof. I find it ironic since the prime reason for the loss of immortality is eating the fruit of knowledge. Oh well, at least you are not going for the phrase 'because the bible/quran/etc said so'

[Lucre]

Athlee:

God knows only because he isn't restricted by the forth dimension known as time. It does not mean he plan it to happen.

As for freewill, I'm sometimes strugling with words how to explain it better, from my own understanding. I'm not implying animals have zero freewill, in fact animals also enjoyed the power to procreate. Only that, humans are able to think in a much larger capacity, and that our 'free will' is something that all of us have together as a community.

In that sense, a human body needed the cooperation of all body parts to function...

if freewill means we can do whatever we want and get it our way...somehow that will contradict God's word of loving us all. I don't know, I just see it as a contradiction, but it might be that my mind is processing at a radically different way from yours and so we see different things very differently.

[athlee]

Athlee:

God knows only because he isn't restricted by the forth dimension known as time. It does not mean he plan it to happen.

As for freewill, I'm sometimes strugling with words how to explain it better, from my own understanding. I'm not implying animals have zero freewill, in fact animals also enjoyed the power to procreate. Only that, humans are able to think in a much larger capacity, and that our 'free will' is something that all of us have together as a community.

In that sense, a human body needed the cooperation of all body parts to function...

if freewill means we can do whatever we want and get it our way...somehow that will contradict God's word of loving us all. I don't know, I just see it as a contradiction, but it might be that my mind is processing at a radically different way from yours and so we see different things very differently.

If god isn't restricted by time, he would have known even before he made man and even then he decided that he wanted to see the end result. This is like me starting a fire to cook a meal with the knowledge that the fire will spread to the undergrowth and cause a forest fire that will wipe out miles and miles of forest and homes.

[kidd]

Athlee:

God knows only because he isn't restricted by the forth dimension known as time. It does not mean he plan it to happen.

One thing he did plan to happen. Judas betraying Jesus and caused him to die on the cross. I mean, if God sent his Son down to Earth to atone for our sins, his death and suffering certainly would be pre-planned. So, Judas has no freewill. Poor thing. I hope he's in heaven now.

If God is all skillful, why didn't he design adam and eve to be resistant to the selling power of Satan in the first place.

That would be a boring Adam and Eve. Maybe God wants to see drama and see people overcoming odds and challenges and built character on the way. Like we watch TV drama. A flawed character that grows through trials and tribulation certainly is more interesting than a character that is perfect and wholesome from the start.