Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

[yittz]

One thing he did plan to happen. Judas betraying Jesus and caused him to die on the cross. I mean, if God sent his Son down to Earth to atone for ours sins, his death and suffering certainly would be pre-planned. So, Judas has no freewill. Poor thing. I hope he's in heaven now.


That would be a boring Adam and Eve. Maybe God wants to see drama and see people overcoming odds and challenges and built character on the way. Like we watch TV drama. A flawed character that grows through trials and tribulation certainly is more interesting than a character that is perfect and wholesome from the start.

Mmm interesting, never saw it from Judas point of view. If God knew Jesus would die, then he should know by who's hands. But that doesn't mean God made Judas do it. Like God knew Judas was going to do it, but he didn't intervene.

Maybe God never claimed to be omnipotent, omniscience and omnibenivolent. His followers just assume he was. Like the protoss in starcraft with regards to the Xel'Naga.

On TV drama. Would it really be interesting for God, if he knew the outcome of the whole film before he saw it. Like even though he didn't direct the film. He can predict correctly what is going to happen at each twist and turn as if he has seen it before.

[Guo Xiang]

Would it really be interesting for God, if he knew the outcome of the whole film before he saw it.

Hmm how would that be interesting. I guess it gets boring over time.

[Lucre]

If god isn't restricted by time, he would have known even before he made man and even then he decided that he wanted to see the end result. This is like me starting a fire to cook a meal with the knowledge that the fire will spread to the undergrowth and cause a forest fire that will wipe out miles and miles of forest and homes.

Athlee:
Well, God didn't need to 'decide' he wanted to see the end result. He is able to see the result of the outcome of every choice you make. That's why through the ages, he sent prophets to warn people, because he see the end-result. Prophets are merely people who could hear God's message because they are in communion with God, and they are supposed to tell the community this message.

One thing he did plan to happen. Judas betraying Jesus and caused him to die on the cross. I mean, if God sent his Son down to Earth to atone for ours sins, his death and suffering certainly would be pre-planned. So, Judas has no freewill. Poor thing. I hope he's in heaven now.

Kidd:
Well, that is an assumption. Just because he knows, does not neccessary make it that he planned. He just knew Judas will betray Jesus, and he didn't send his Son down to DIE. He sent his son down to bring the message of God to the people, and to introduce to the people about God. Before Christ, the understanding of God was about LAW and PUNISHMENT, but Jesus told us God is our Father in Heaven, God is LOVE. He gave us an insight, and he led a life as an example for us to follow. He was killed because he was never compromising his life to the ways of the world.

As for whether Judas make it to heaven, well, he might have, since he regretted his actions eventually ~ God might have forgiven him. He would probably be a good man apart from his one deed (For goodness sake, he was an apostle~so it's actually an illustration of how a good man can still make a mistake and fall deep deep down, just like how those who may have been called to be the servants of God might be lured away and fall from grace)

[kidd]

Kidd:
Well, that is an assumption. Just because he knows, does not neccessary make it that he planned. He just knew Judas will betray Jesus, and he didn't send his Son down to DIE. He sent his son down to bring the message of God to the people, and to introduce to the people about God. Before Christ, the understanding of God was about LAW and PUNISHMENT, but Jesus told us God is our Father in Heaven, God is LOVE. He gave us an insight, and he led a life as an example for us to follow. He was killed because he was never compromising his life to the ways of the world.

As for whether Judas make it to heaven, well, he might have, since he regretted his actions eventually ~ God might have forgiven him. He would probably be a good man apart from his one deed (For goodness sake, he was an apostle~so it's actually an illustration of how a good man can still make a mistake and fall deep deep down, just like how those who may have been called to be the servants of God might be lured away and fall from grace)

Uh, isn't this the foundation and selling point of Christianity? Isn't it the Christian who always says 'Jesus died for our sin', 'God so love us that he sent his son down to die for our sins' and that why we can only reach God through Jesus? Now, it's not?

[Lucre]

Uh, isn't this the foundation and selling point of Christianity? Isn't it the Christian who always says 'Jesus died for our sin', 'God so love us that he sent his son down to die for our sins' and that why we can only reach God through Jesus? Now, it's not?

Yes and no.

Yes because that was what happened, no because it wasn't done in the sense that God is a sadist that wanted Jesus to suffer. He came more from the direction of instructing people, but he knew there will be those who rejected him, which eventually led to his death. The manner of his death was symbolic even, in a way that only the blood of Christ would washed away our sins. (I don't want to go too deeply into the rituals at this point because that is a whole lot chapter of things to explain, which may not be particularly relevant to this context)

Now, before I start putting words into God's mouth...we have to look at what he really said. Was Jesus's purpose here just to be slaughtered? It's a terribly depressing life to know that you're born to be killed. He was born for a purpose, and the killing was only inevitable. He was fully human, and imagine how he felt, knowing he will die, and he must not avoid it.

Once again, Jesus could have ran away, because he knew. He could have refused to go through the crucifixion, by escaping from the authorities. He could have say "good grief...that hurts, bye Daddy, I dont wanna put up with this" (which is what all of us do)

But who is Jesus? Jesus is God. God wouldn't do that, because he wanted to show us his love, by going down to our level, and experience what we experienced. It's a fair deal, since God didn't sit up there and stare down at sonny Jesus and watch a great entertaining movie. He's up there, and he's down here, suffering. And imagine God isn't limited by time. He can still see the 'ouching' 2000 years ago, and know whats to come 1000 years later......he can access to any timeline and perhaps, he IS surrounded by every timeline.

We are human beings, and we are limited by time ~ thats why its really difficult to grasp God's status, who is infinite.

Yet he know he has to go through this, to show us all the greatest miracle on earth. (I know its contestable, depending on what you are willing to believe, but my stand remained that its the greatest miracle which is REAL that happened)

All prophets came before him preach a message from God. Jesus did that too.

All prophets could probably do some healing, and raise a dead or two. Jesus did that too.

No prophets come back to life after death. Jesus did. He beat the other guys by raising himself from grave.

The reason why I wanted to illustrate my point from this angle is, it is way too easy to stare at this story at a very singular context, whereas very often, God revealed to us, many layers of truth which we need to study carefully. With our limitations of abilities, we further dissect that down to various points for easy understanding, less we lose ourselves in trying to decipher the revelations God has made for us, waiting to be understood.

As for selling point, I'm not particularly interested to 'sell' the religion. I'm only morally obligated to share the faith with others. I am not looking for buyers.

Questions put forward regarding Christianity gives me an opportunity to consider and reflect. So I thank you all for doing that. God bless you guys.

[Banh Mi]

If he knew Judas was gonna betray Jesus, then there's no way Judas could do anything else. So even before Judas was born he was condemned already.

[athlee]

Athlee:
Well, God didn't need to 'decide' he wanted to see the end result. He is able to see the result of the outcome of every choice you make. That's why through the ages, he sent prophets to warn people, because he see the end-result. Prophets are merely people who could hear God's message because they are in communion with God, and they are supposed to tell the community this message.

If he already seen the outcome, the prophets were useless since he knew we would not listen. He would have known about the crusades and every other war made in the name of religion (regardless of the actual reason) and the multiple number of prophets that he sent probably made it worse. In fact, those prophets can be said to be merely god paying lip service to us. He knows they will fail, but what the heck, go for it.

Example would be that I see a stampeding herd of elephants coming your way and I decide that I will stop the herd by talking to them.

On TV drama. Would it really be interesting for God, if he knew the outcome of the whole film before he saw it. Like even though he didn't direct the film. He can predict correctly what is going to happen at each twist and turn as if he has seen it before.

Hmm how would that be interesting. I guess it gets boring over time.

Don't you ever watch a show a second or third time? I have watched some shows and read some books multiple times. I am sure you already know everything that's going to happen, but you watch it anyway.

[yittz]

Don't you ever watch a show a second or third time? I have watched some shows and read some books multiple times. I am sure you already know everything that's going to happen, but you watch it anyway.

I watch repeats, because I miss things in the original film, or try to pick up extra stuff or find extra meaning, explore themes further etc. God should know every little detail before hand. Also the film have to be enjoyable. I guess God enjoy seeing tragedies, or seeing his creations hit bump after bump.

The context of the comment was to Kidd saying why Adam and Eve were designed to fail despite God's prior knowledge of Satan's successful lure.

Then again I've forgotten the explanation as to why God still hasn't destroyed Satan in the first place.

[athlee]

I watch repeats, because I miss things in the original film, or try to pick up extra stuff or find extra meaning, explore themes further etc. God should know every little detail before hand. Also the film have to be enjoyable. I guess God enjoy seeing tragedies, or seeing his creations hit bump after bump.

For me, I reread a book or rewatch a show because it is enjoyable. A lot of people does the same. See me or kidd's post, somewhere in the last two pages, I think one or both of us called him a sadist

The context of the comment was to Kidd saying why Adam and Eve were designed to fail despite God's prior knowledge of Satan's successful lure.

Then again I've forgotten the explanation as to why God still hasn't destroyed Satan in the first place.

I think the RCC explanation was that because Satan or Lucifer was once an angel and, like man, they were given the ability to choose (aka free will). He was banished from his presence (aka heaven) and they supposedly suffer the same fate as man who choose to reject god. Lucre should have a better explanation than this.

Lucre: Jesus is god? Is this about or from the trinity thing? I never did get around to reading that part (I prefer the stories, in fact, I can say that the bible probably got me to reading fantasy books ) so I have absolutely no idea where this came from.

No wonder the Muslims are up in arms with Christianity if it says Jesus = god.

[kidd]

If he already seen the outcome, the prophets were useless since he knew we would not listen. He would have known about the crusades and every other war made in the name of religion (regardless of the actual reason) and the multiple number of prophets that he sent probably made it worse. In fact, those prophets can be said to be merely god paying lip service to us. He knows they will fail, but what the heck, go for it.

Example would be that I see a stampeding herd of elephants coming your way and I decide that I will stop the herd by talking to them.

I think what Lucre mean is the future is not set in stone when it comes to the fate of humanity. But, from the way humanity is going, God can see the future outcome of it. If humanity acted differently, the outcome will be different. So, God sent prophets down to warn humanity the consequences of their action.
It like Marty McFly trying to change history because he knew the outcome.

But, I agree with you that the prophets kinda ineffective. They were not even consistent. Different prophet said different things. It's more effective if God use his booming voice to talk to humanity about the errors of their way. It will be better if he appears before them. At least, people will believe in the existence of God then. And he should appear every century so that people won't say the books written about his appearance are fiction.

But, then, God won't be able to see human overcoming challenges and develope faith.

[athlee]

kidd: If god or someone knows the future, then there is no hope for changes and thus it is set in stone. If you have seen a show, when you watch it a second time, will it change? Sending the prophets when you know it is useless (because you already know the result) is like Obama coming out with a law to outlaw Christianity knowing full well that all the Republicans and Democrats are against this law and will vote against it. It is doom to fail no matter what he says, no matter how many prophets/advisors he send to the senators to explain the Islam is the true religion.

[yittz]

I think what Lucre mean is the future is not set in stone when it comes to the fate of humanity. But, from the way humanity is going, God can see the future outcome of it. If humanity acted differently, the outcome will be different. So, God sent prophets down to warn humanity the consequences of their action.
It like Marty McFly trying to change history because he knew the outcome.

But, I agree with you that the prophets kinda ineffective. They were not even consistent. Different prophet said different things. It's more effective if God use his booming voice to talk to humanity about the errors of their way. It will be better if he appears before them. At least, people will believe in the existence of God then. And he should appear every century so that people won't say the books written about his appearance are fiction.

But, then, God won't be able to see human overcoming challenges and develope faith.

Excuse my comparison. If we see religion as a niche of products, and God being one of its selling points, the Christian God (as well as Judiasm and Islam) has a really good appeal in that He is all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc. This sells well to people who are optimists and believe the product. But us pessimists, wants to know every little detail - if he is all knowing then why...; if he is all powerful, why ....; if he is all loving, then why..." and we end up being turned off by a product that cannot logically do what it promises. I reckon, if you change the marketing of the product, more pessimists will buy into it.

[kidd]

kidd: If god or someone knows the future, then there is no hope for changes and thus it is set in stone. If you have seen a show, when you watch it a second time, will it change?

Think 'Back to the Future'. Marty McFly accidentally went back to the past. He did something there and when he went back to his time, his family condition has changed.
So, it's not set in stone (except for Judas's case).

It's not a set in stone future, but, the most possible future base on what humanity is doing now.

[Lucre]

Athlee:

If he already seen the outcome, the prophets were useless since he knew we would not listen. He would have known about the crusades and every other war made in the name of religion (regardless of the actual reason) and the multiple number of prophets that he sent probably made it worse. In fact, those prophets can be said to be merely god paying lip service to us. He knows they will fail, but what the heck, go for it.

Example would be that I see a stampeding herd of elephants coming your way and I decide that I will stop the herd by talking to them.

kidd: If god or someone knows the future, then there is no hope for changes and thus it is set in stone. If you have seen a show, when you watch it a second time, will it change? Sending the prophets when you know it is useless (because you already know the result) is like Obama coming out with a law to outlaw Christianity knowing full well that all the Republicans and Democrats are against this law and will vote against it. It is doom to fail no matter what he says, no matter how many prophets/advisors he send to the senators to explain the Islam is the true religion.

You are speaking from the view of a person who is restricted by time, and thus unable to conceive the notion of one who is outside of the timeframe. God can see the future because he is able to know what will happen according to what the person do. It does not mean that everything is pre-destined. It is just that he knew what you intend to do, and the result of it. But if you change your mind and do something else, the future will change accordingly, but he knew that too, because he is outside of time, and able to peep into the consequences of your actions.

I think the RCC explanation was that because Satan or Lucifer was once an angel and, like man, they were given the ability to choose (aka free will). He was banished from his presence (aka heaven) and they supposedly suffer the same fate as man who choose to reject god. Lucre should have a better explanation than this.

Lucre: Jesus is god? Is this about or from the trinity thing? I never did get around to reading that part (I prefer the stories, in fact, I can say that the bible probably got me to reading fantasy books ) so I have absolutely no idea where this came from.

I will try to answer from my own perspectives of what i understood from their teachings, but if you truly want to know where RCC stands, you're free to do your own research in all the published writings by the church.

To me, I associate life, and all things real and present, to God, and 'Satan' is the state of 'rejection of God', 'rejection of life'. "absence of the real presence". Going along here, Satan is void, the cessation of existence. If we fall into that hole, its where we ceased to become, and totally imcompatible with God. If being in heaven is a sign of union with God, then being in the state of total rejection will be an absence of existence, and without eternity. So if Satan is death, how does one destroy death? I repeat, this is how i reconcile my opinions on the position of Satan, so dont quote me, a mostly ignorant Christians on what the church teaches.

The second question is thankfully easier. LOL. Yes, Jesus is the second persona of the trinity. God is one person, in three identities. Jesus is God, in human form. I think have explained trinity in the earlier postings.

Yea, Islamic faith views Jesus as a mere prophet. Now, if Muslims get too angry because Christians called a man a God, Christians are similarly entitled to be upset that Muslims call our God a mere man and nothing more.

It's more effective if God use his booming voice to talk to humanity about the errors of their way.

kidd:
I doubt it, people might think they're schezo or something and start taking pills to curb the 'voices in the head'.

[kidd]

kidd:
I doubt it, people might think they're schezo or something and start taking pills to curb the 'voices in the head'.

I think people will be able to differentiate between voices from outside and inside. I'm certain a voice booming down from the sky and everyone hearing it at the same time would not be mistaken as 'voices in the head'.

[Lucre]

I think people will be able to differentiate between voices from outside and inside. I'm certain a voice booming down from the sky and everyone hearing it at the same time would not be mistaken as 'voices in the head'.

God has over the ages displayed miracles publicly. But even then, people doubted. So I'm really not so sure if humans will continue to excused away the signs and tried to explain it away ~ maybe science could.

After all God also created science knowing that us humans enjoyed intellectual stimulation.

[athlee]

kidd: time travel brings its own problems, and I really do not want to go into it since I get a headache each time. So I will just point you to searching grandfather paradox and also the Norikov self-consistency principle.

You are speaking from the view of a person who is restricted by time, and thus unable to conceive the notion of one who is outside of the timeframe. God can see the future because he is able to know what will happen according to what the person do. It does not mean that everything is pre-destined. It is just that he knew what you intend to do, and the result of it. But if you change your mind and do something else, the future will change accordingly, but he knew that too, because he is outside of time, and able to peep into the consequences of your actions.

But when I say omniscience, it means that not only does god knows what choices I have, he already knows what I am going to choose.

Therefore, if god is omniscience as RCC likes to claim, then he can only be one of two things,

1) a sadist that just pay lip service to helping us while he enjoy the tragedies that occur or
2) free will is fake and he is a sadist

And sorry, but I consider your argument of me not being able to conceive the notion of a being outside time as meaningless simply because that is what we are doing at this moment.

God has over the ages displayed miracles publicly. But even then, people doubted. So I'm really not so sure if humans will continue to excused away the signs and tried to explain it away ~ maybe science could.

After all God also created science knowing that us humans enjoyed intellectual stimulation.

Examples would be good, particularly from sources other than the bible. Since we can't rely on the bible to be correct on dates (6000 years old earth in heaven's time?). And you had also cast doubt on the story of Adam and Eve by saying they might only be a representation of man (your post on god not encouraging incest) and this by implication cast doubt on nearly all other stories where the protagonist is a descendant of Adam.

So if you can name some miracles that are not sourced only form the bible would be good.

[kidd]

kidd: time travel brings its own problems, and I really do not want to go into it since I get a headache each time. So I will just point you to searching grandfather paradox and also the Norikov self-consistency principle.

Now, I conclude that you don't really understand what I mean. Lucre's explanation has nothing to do with time-travel. I just use the example of 'Back to the Future' to show that the future can be changed if the past is changed. Please ignore the travel back in time part. I thought my example is easy enough to understand, but, you still don't get it. No one is traveling back through time in Lucre's explanation. So, there's no paradox.

[Banh Mi]

kidd: time travel brings its own problems, and I really do not want to go into it since I get a headache each time. So I will just point you to searching grandfather paradox and also the Norikov self-consistency principle.

I think what kidd means is that it is a possibility that god can see the possible future from the way things are playing out for us at our moment in time. It's subject to change, but if left unchanged it heads down a foreseeable path.

Like if you got on a train to China, you will end up in China. But along the way your path can be altered, when the track splits, and you may not end up in China if there is intervention divine or otherwise that leads you down a different track.

[kidd]

I think what kidd means is that it is a possibility that god can see the possible future from the way things are playing out for us at our moment in time. It's subject to change, but if left unchanged it heads down a foreseeable path.

Like if you got on a train to China, you will end up in China. But along the way your path can be altered, when the track splits, and you may not end up in China if there is intervention divine or otherwise that leads you down a different track.

That is exactly what I mean. Thank you Banh Mi.