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Thread: Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

  1. #161
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    I think what kidd means is that it is a possibility that god can see the possible future from the way things are playing out for us at our moment in time. It's subject to change, but if left unchanged it heads down a foreseeable path.

    Like if you got on a train to China, you will end up in China. But along the way your path can be altered, when the track splits, and you may not end up in China if there is intervention divine or otherwise that leads you down a different track.
    As I said:
    But when I say omniscience, it means that not only does god knows what choices I have, he already knows what I am going to choose.

    Therefore, if god is omniscience as RCC likes to claim, then he can only be one of two things,

    1) a sadist that just pay lip service to helping us while he enjoy the tragedies that occur or
    2) free will is fake and he is a sadist
    I equate time travel to Lucre's explanation because since god is outside time as Lucre claims and explain, he would know what choices will be made not only by the person on the train, but also all choices that would be made with regards to the train. As such, he knows whether you will reach China, even before you have even thought of going china, he already knows that you will think of and choose to go China. He knows which train you will choose, who are the occupants, the time, the weather, everything. In short, 'he knows'.

    There is no 'most possible future' when someone knows everything. There is only one.


    Daniel Greenberger and Karl Svozil proposed that quantum theory gives a model for time travel without paradoxes. In quantum theory observation causes possible states to 'collapse' into one measured state; hence, the past observed from the present is deterministic (it has only one possible state), but the present observed from the past has many possible states until our actions cause it to collapse into one state. Our actions will then be seen to have been inevitable.
    While the above is in reference to time travel, it is relevant to Lucre's claim that god is outside time, in that to us living in the present there are plenty of possible futures, but for god, who is outside time and knows everything there is only one outcome and thus it is set in stone.
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  2. #162
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    To Kidd & Banh Mi:
    Thank you very much.

    Athlee:
    I think Kidd and Banh Mi had also explained the point on dimension of time, so I shall leave it at that, since we'd all said enough.

    On the bible, I did not 'cast doubt' on stories of Adam and Eve. I merely tried to explain that the writings are not meant to be taken literally. Just like how someone wouldnt take literally of the words used in poetic writings. Neither did I say that we should doubt the bible, and imagine them as FALSE.

    The dates and years, I have also explained that ancient hebrews do not have the means to write the stories down in pen and paper, and rely largely on memory to remember the stories. They were also people who had a 'thing' for numbers, whereby certain numbers represented certain meanings, and hence, the number of years are probably recorded in that manner - for easy remembrance, since culturally, they all 'knew' what each number meant.

    Guo Xiang suggested that the number of years might be in God's time. I did not, so you cannot possibly quote her explanation to throw it back to me on what I'd said??

    As a Christian, I have to believe the bible is true. Given that context, since I believe the bible to be true, then the miracles recorded in it must be true as well. Outside of the bible, miracles have been recorded throughout the years too. There are too many that it's difficult to quote everything, just like it's similarly too troublesome to quote every passage from the bible, which are freely available for refrerences online if you're too lazy to purchase a copy.

    For example, the canonized saints. They can only be saints if miracles are attributed to them, hence, just by looking at the number of saints in the RCC, you can be sure that there has been many recorded miracles attributed to them for them to be canonized as saints.

    I don't think it's all that tough to find information on miracles, since google is only a mouseclick away.

    Just a question for you, are you an atheist because you have objections mainly to Christian teachings? I wonder what is your take on other major religions?

  3. #163
    Senior Member athlee's Avatar
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    It isn't only Christian. Like I said previously, I was a born a Buddhist, but while I think that the philosophy of being good etc, is admirable, I question the nirvana and karma thing. I also have been exposed to Christianity from a young age and again I question and reject alot of things there. Muslim is essentially the same at the core of it, therefore I will not go there. I have also read and studied (if you consider obsessive reading studying anyway) taoism and again I reject that.

    I admit that I have mixed up Guo Xiang's response on time with yours, sorry. But how do you come up with you accept that the bible is true, and at the same time say that the stories inside are not to be taken literally? Can we not also then say that any of the miracles being presented by the bible should not be taken literally?

    The canonised saints as an example? Bear in mind that they are from man, the miracles attributed to them were made years after their and probably all other witness' death. Anything from man is coloured with perspective, discrimination, politics, etc. They write it based on their own cultural view and perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

  4. #164
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    It isn't only Christian. Like I said previously, I was a born a Buddhist, but while I think that the philosophy of being good etc, is admirable, I question the nirvana and karma thing. I also have been exposed to Christianity from a young age and again I question and reject alot of things there. Muslim is essentially the same at the core of it, therefore I will not go there. I have also read and studied (if you consider obsessive reading studying anyway) taoism and again I reject that.

    I admit that I have mixed up Guo Xiang's response on time with yours, sorry. But how do you come up with you accept that the bible is true, and at the same time say that the stories inside are not to be taken literally? Can we not also then say that any of the miracles being presented by the bible should not be taken literally?

    The canonised saints as an example? Bear in mind that they are from man, the miracles attributed to them were made years after their and probably all other witness' death. Anything from man is coloured with perspective, discrimination, politics, etc. They write it based on their own cultural view and perspective.
    Athlee:
    The bible is also recorded by man, so going by your definition, you can reject all of it since it is 'colored with perspective, discrimination, politics'. As a Christian, I must believe that the writings in the bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and hence must be true.

    Not literally doesn't equate as false. It just means that we have to look beyond the literal words to grasp the meaning of the story in the bible, what it is really trying to teach, than be distracted by the exact choice of word used, or the exact pitch it was written.

    Bear in mind that throughout the centuries, cultures, and words changed in meaning drastically, and what seemed very sensible in their time, make little sense in our time, to read it literally. I'm sure you know the kids these days speak 'a different language' than their parents, with so many new found slangs etc.

    Since we have 'no right' to change what is written by men that were inspired by God, less we drastically slaughtered the essense, we are invited to understand these passages, in the mindset of whom the writings were addressed to, to understand the fullness of the message that the writings offers.

    I guess your inability to understand that I can reconcile 'truth' and 'non-literal meaning' is similar to your inability to reconcile 'free-will' with 'God's all-knowing'. On that, I have nothing further to add on at this point.

    Also, The RCC teaches that the church is Christ's church, so at least in terms of spiritual teachings, the church is guided by the Holy Spirit, and thus infallible. However, the infallibility does not refer to the members of the church being 'unable to be wrong', only the official stand of the RCC teachings on the faith. For example, the church teaches that God is trinity, and that can never change, and will always be correct. There can be corrupt popes along the way, but it must be understood that, the decisions made, in regards to the teachings of the church in spiritual matters, remain infallible.
    o wilku mowa...♪

    The only thing I need to know is that I don't know anything.

  5. #165
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    remember_Cedric: last I recall, some animals can and do change sex when it is needed, so your equation is partially valid

    Guo Xiang: here's something for you

    http://my-1.themalaysianinsider.com/...-four-husbands

    I won't repeat what is written in there, but check out the last part on Gordon G Gallup (I have absolutely no idea who he is, but will take a look later). This should make your day

    edit: I think this is the one she is quoting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_G._Gallup
    Reading the article My Four Husbands and I.

    These guys are always overreacting to small issues (or non-issues). Nothing new . I was wondering how come the woman can be so brave to write such an article. Won't she get into trouble? Well, turned out she did (and her editor too).

    An article promoting polygamy for women published in an independent Egyptian newspaper has caused a stir as one MP filed a lawsuit calling for a trial and several lawyers lobby the government to ban a television series about the same topic.
    The complaint said the article not only promotes vice but also constitutes a flagrant violation of both the law and religion and flirts with the idea of mixed parentage and goes against the ethics of journalism.

    “When the paper published the article, it took part in all those crimes,” Haefz argued. “That is why I call for putting the chairman of the board of directors and the editor-in chief on trial in order to compensate the society for the offense of publishing such a deriding article in a Muslim society.”
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  6. #166
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Won't she get into trouble? Well, turned out she did (and her editor too).
    Not surprising at all.

    If she wants to get the freedom she'd have to get out of her country and go to a society that is much more open for women. But she might want to stay to continue fighting for women's rights (kudos to her if she does) and if she does, sadly she must be prepared for all possible consequences.
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    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

  7. #167
    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Reading the article My Four Husbands and I.

    These guys are always overreacting to small issues (or non-issues). Nothing new . I was wondering how come the woman can be so brave to write such an article. Won't she get into trouble? Well, turned out she did (and her editor too).
    Four husbands? I don't even one to deal with one....anybody who promotes polygamy must be crazy. But brave of her to put it up.

    But on the serious note, I think monogamy is more sensible...you only have 1 spouse to drive you crazy. Muslim men are brave....to think of having four wives.
    o wilku mowa...♪

    The only thing I need to know is that I don't know anything.

  8. #168
    Member yongbifan's Avatar
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    if only that were the case, as someone who lived in the Middle East (Oman) women are nothing more than baby makers and conduits to higher social status..when you work in middle east you need a sponsor(back in the day..don't know for sure about now) and my folks ran a private clinic there which was owned by him...he had 3 wives and the last one was just 16(she was a rich guys one of many daughters) when she married him(he was middle aged)and by the time i left Oman he had a grand total of around 21 kids(around 4 from the third wife)...there had been cases of few educated women there but the story never ended well for them and most families are less inclined to give no more than a HS degree for the girls(by law due to the reformative king)

  9. #169
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    It seems Marina Mahathir sings a different tune from her father.

    Her response is very sensible compared to her father who is still harping about this being a sensitive issue that should be swept under the carpet.

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...jerk-reactions
    Last edited by kidd; 01-25-10 at 04:29 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  10. #170
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    It seem Marina Mahathir sings a different tune from her father.

    Her response is very sensible compared to her father who is still harping about this being a sensitive issue that should be swept under the carpet.

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...jerk-reactions
    Which is why some comments in her blog asked if she's talked to her dad about this issue yet, and what's her dad's opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

  11. #171
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Now, it's a the mosques turn.Wild boar heads were left in at the compound of 2 mosques.

    http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/122973

    My housemate has a conspiracy that all this uproar is instigated by the government to divert attention from the Teoh Beng Hock case (when is the autopsy report coming out?)
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  12. #172
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Hi Lucre.

    Does catholics believe in the AntiChrist?

    Just found something interesting while reading about AntiChrist in wikipedia.

    Masih ad-Dajjal (Arabic: الدّجّال‎, literally "The Impostor"), is an evil figure in Islamic eschatology. He is to appear pretending to be the true messiah at a time in the future, before Yawm al-Qiyamah (The Day of Resurrection, Judgment Day). It is also believed by Muslims that Jesus (Arabic: عيسى‎) will return at the time of the Dajjal and he will be the one to eventually defeat him.
    I know that Christians believe in the second coming of Christ, but, I didn't know that Muslim also believe so.
    Last edited by kidd; 01-27-10 at 09:36 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  13. #173
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Hi Lucre.

    Does catholics believe in the AntiChrist?

    Just found something interesting while reading about AntiChrist in wikipedia.


    I know that Christians believe in the second coming of Christ, but, I didn't know that Muslim also believe so.
    I always thought that Christianity and Islam came from the same root. They are like brothers engaged in an intense sibling rivalry.

    These days whenever I think of anti-Christ, Obama keeps coming up in my head because he fits some of the descriptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

  14. #174
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    Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have the same root, and are usually grouped together as Abrahamic religions. Judaism is considered the oldest of them, I'm not sure when and how they split with Islam. Christianity was derived from Judaism.

  15. #175
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    I know they came from the same root. But, not all their teachings are the same. Islam doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God or part of God. Islam believes Jesus is one of the many prophets God sent down to Earth. Most importantly, Islam believes that Muhammad S.A.W is the last prophet of God. That's why I was surprised that Muslims believe in the Second Coming. The prophet Islam glorifies and follows is Muhammad S.A.W. So, I was surprised that the person Muslims believe will come back to fight the last evil is Jesus and not Muhammad S.A.W.

    The chronology is like this
    Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam
    Last edited by kidd; 01-28-10 at 03:29 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  16. #176
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I know they came from the same root. But, not all their teachings are the same. Islam doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God or part of God. Islam believes Jesus is one of the many prophets God sent down to Earth. Most importantly, Islam believes that Muhammad S.A.W is the last prophet of God. That's why I was surprised that Muslims believe in the Second Coming. The prophet Islam glorifies and follows is Muhammad S.A.W. So, I was surprised that the person Muslims believe will comeback to fight the last evil is Jesus and not Muhammad S.A.W.

    The chronology is like this
    Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam
    Which is why I noted they are "brothers" instead of clones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
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  17. #177
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Which is why I noted they are "brothers" instead of clones.
    Your 'I always thought that Christianity and Islam came from the same root' implies that I don't know this fact and that's why I was surprised that Muslims believe in the Second Coming. My post was to clarify that I know this fact and explain why I was still surprised despite knowing this fact.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  18. #178
    Member Bei Rongkun's Avatar
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    It was all start because Abraham "can not tahan" anymore to having a son. He take his maid as "medium " thus born Ismael. But in Bible, God promised another thing to Abraham thus dismissed Ismael and replaced by Isaac, son of Abraham's official wife Sarah.

    Ismael then kicked out to the desert but God promised Abraham that Ismael descendent will be a great nation also.

    Judaism and Christian believed Isaac is the true descendent, while Islam believe in Ismael. More detail read in Genesis 20 to 21 something.

  19. #179
    Senior Member remember_Cedric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bei Rongkun View Post
    It was all start because Abraham "can not tahan" anymore to having a son.
    That's a funny way to put!
    What can I say? I'm still standing! No weapon against me shall prosper! I am more than a conqueror!!!

    I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?

  20. #180
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Your 'I always thought that Christianity and Islam came from the same root' implies that I don't know this fact and that's why I was surprised that Muslims believe in the Second Coming. My post was to clarify that I know this fact and explain why I was still surprised despite knowing this fact.
    There was zero intention for such implication. I was making a comment on what I think of the two in response to your remark about the similar belief of the second coming of Christ, instead of your knowledge of the two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
    DZC - "Your wife and I, we are old friends."

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