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Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates
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Thread: Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

  1. #1
    Senior Member galvatron's Avatar
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    Default Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

    Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates


    Three churches have been attacked in Malaysia's capital Kuala Lumpur, ahead of protests by Muslim groups.
    The administrative offices of one church were destroyed by a firebomb attack and one of the other two churches attacked was slightly damaged.
    Some Muslim groups are angry at a court decision allowing non-Muslims to use the word Allah to refer to God.
    The government of the mainly Muslim nation has condemned the attacks on the churches and vowed to take action.
    About 60% of Malaysians are Malay Muslims and the government relies on their vote.
    There also significant Chinese and Indian minorities, who are mainly Christians, Hindus and Buddhists.






    The controversy stems from a ban on a Catholic newspaper, The Herald, using the word Allah.
    The Kuala Lumpur High Court struck down the three-year old ban on non-Muslims using of the word Allah.
    Some major Muslim organisations, including the Islamic political party, PAS, have agreed with the court, saying other Abrahamic religions - Christinaity and Judiasm - may use the word.
    But some vocal groups, including the Muslim Youth Movement, Abim, have cast the use of the word Allah as a surreptitious effort on the part of Christians to try to seduce Muslims away from Islam.
    Church officials say that although the word Allah originated in Arabic, Malays have used it for centuries to refer generally to God, and Arabic-speaking Christians used it before Islam was founded, reports the BBC's religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott.
    Molotov cocktails
    The argument has continued in the media and the courts for months but had not become violent - until assailants on motorbikes were seen smashing the windows of the Metro Tabernacle Church, a Protestant church in Kuala Lumpur on Friday.
    The ground floor office of the three-storey church was destroyed in a blaze a little after midnight, said Kevin Ang, a church spokesman.
    Most of Malaysia's population is Muslim

    Kuala Lumpur police Chief Mohamad Sabtu Osman said police had found a wrench, an empty petrol tin and two scorched motorbikes at the scene.
    Separately, Molotov cocktails were thrown into the compounds of two other churches before dawn, causing minor damage in one and none in the other, church officials said.
    Prime Minister Najib Razak condemned the attacks, saying such actions would "destroy our country's harmony".
    "The government will take whatever steps it can to prevent such acts," he said.
    There was tight security at all churches in Malaysia and at several mosques where protests against the court's ruling took place, says the BBC's Jennifer Pak in Kuala Lumpur.
    Mass nationwide demonstrations failed to materialise on Friday, but protesters at mosques in Kuala Lumpur carried placards reading "Allah is only for us" and "Heresy arises from words wrongly used".
    "I hope the court will understand the feeling of the majority Muslims of Malaysia," said Ahmad Johari, at the National Mosque.
    "We can fight to the death over this issue," he told Associated Press news agency.
    The government has appealed against the court verdict and the High Court has suspended the decision's implementation until the appeal is heard.



    Link


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8447450.stm

    Shall Malaysian Christian allow to use word "Allah"?

  2. #2
    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    People kill each other cuz of religion. What else is new. Par for the course.

    If people of different religions helped each other, THAT would surprise me.
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    If people of different religions helped each other, THAT would surprise me.
    I'm sure that happens. Not in the way that religious people helping someone because they are from a different religion. But religious people helping other people for the sake of helping people, that those they helped just happened to be of a different religion.

    For example Oskar Schindler helping Jews during the Holocaust. He was Catholic, but that doesn't matter.

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    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    I'm sure that happens. Not in the way that religious people helping someone because they are from a different religion. But religious people helping other people for the sake of helping people, that those they helped just happened to be of a different religion.

    For example Oskar Schindler helping Jews during the Holocaust. He was Catholic, but that doesn't matter.
    yes it happens alot, but because they arent sensational, most of the 'small helps' that we offered to one another doesnt get much limelight, and those bad stuff just got splash over the headlines.

    for example, leading people to think muslim are evil fanatics (and invoke more hatred amongst non-muslim)

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    Default Irresponsible.

    I was in Kuala Lumpur recently. The anger of the muslim majority is not going to go away just because the islamic party leaders say it's OK. I spoke to a friend who's islamic practices are sporadic at best and usually very uninterested in religious issues, but he was furious. He didn't see it as a religious issue at all but non-malays taking advantage of a divided malay vote. To him, the word Allah when spoken in Malaysia ( or US, Europe and Africa where he had travelled) in any language has always referred to the muslim God, long before the Christians came as colonialists. He quoted many examples of what the Roman Catholic church ( I think he meant the Pope) had been doing to maintain good relations with other religions. And so to 'spit' ( his words) in the Muslim face is not part of the R.C. church's stand but that of the local Archbishop (who is ethnic Indian) and his Hindraf buddies ( He said Muslims just hate Hindraf) who are pariahs, ungrateful bast*** etc. I think this posting will be deleted if I used all of his words . My opinion: Whatever usage of words or laws or regulations must be acceptable to the majority, this is what democracy is. What is the point of stirring the hornet's nest when not using Allah by the Catholics or other religions is not going to affect their religions. It is just plain mischief, irresposible.

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    Senior Member jiang bao's Avatar
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    I would have to concur. Thereís no need for Christians to use Allah. (Are Cís trying to win more credibility by claiming that Muslims really also believe in that one god too?)
    What are you fighting for? Just mix them into pissing beef balls, stupid.
    SOD Pt. 7 updated Jan. 6, '08

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    Senior Member remember_Cedric's Avatar
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    Was it questioned or a confirmation that why was the word 'Allah' mentioned by the Catholic before they make assumption of a Christian trying to "seduce" a Muslim over?
    What can I say? I'm still standing! No weapon against me shall prosper! I am more than a conqueror!!!

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    Senior Member Lucre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    I would have to concur. Thereís no need for Christians to use Allah. (Are Cís trying to win more credibility by claiming that Muslims really also believe in that one god too?)
    the motive of the RCC is not about wanting to convert muslims into catholicism, but the rational stems from the understanding that God works in mysterious ways, and there can be salvation outside the RCC, and good people of various religions may come to know God in their own ways. If we looked to the origins of Islamic faith and Christianity, we could see it all stems from the same source of origin, hence concluding that we are worshipping the same God, abeit in different ways.

    It was probably there to address the religious hatred amongst different religions, whereby many people were mistaken that 'if you're not in the RCC', you're worshipping the 'devil in disguise'; more so than trying to increase RCC headcount.

    The RCC usage of 'Allah' stems from the understanding that Allah is the vernacular language which means God, in Malaysia. As for myself, who attended the English Mass, I would not get to hear God being called Allah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucre View Post

    The RCC usage of 'Allah' stems from the understanding that Allah is the vernacular language which means God, in Malaysia. As for myself, who attended the English Mass, I would not get to hear God being called Allah.
    From what I have read, using the word Allah during church services is not banned (since it is limited to the congregation of the religion), but using the word in print, specifically the Herald is banned. Also, there are many words for god in Malaysian if the aim is to translate it to the vernacular language. My dictionary says such as Tuhan, Yang esa, Maha-tuhan. But Allah is Arabic for al-ilahi .... The God.

    On the surface, the issue was translation. But now it becomes the right of other religions in MALAYSIA ( not Egypt or Indonesia where it is used by other religions) to use it. Honestly, with all this Islamic terrorism going on, I don't see why any non-muslim would want to associate themselves with Islam other than to thumb their noses at Malaysian muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bella25 View Post
    From what I have read, using the word Allah during church services is not banned (since it is limited to the congregation of the religion), but using the word in print, specifically the Herald is banned. Also, there are many words for god in Malaysian if the aim is to translate it to the vernacular language. My dictionary says such as Tuhan, Yang esa, Maha-tuhan. But Allah is Arabic for al-ilahi .... The God.

    On the surface, the issue was translation. But now it becomes the right of other religions in MALAYSIA ( not Egypt or Indonesia where it is used by other religions) to use it. Honestly, with all this Islamic terrorism going on, I don't see why any non-muslim would want to associate themselves with Islam other than to thumb their noses at Malaysian muslims.
    I see what you mean. That's true! I agree to some extent.
    What can I say? I'm still standing! No weapon against me shall prosper! I am more than a conqueror!!!

    I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Six Muslim NGOs offer to help protect churches

    KUALA LUMPUR: Six Muslim non-governmental organisations (NGO) have offered their help to prevent any further attacks on churches.

    Their efforts would begin in Kuala Lumpur and Selangor but could expand to other states as well with the help of more Muslim NGOs.

    Source: http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne...10-190882.html
    Those rioting Muslims certainly have a low self-esteem and confidence in their own religion, if they think followers can be "seduced" away so easily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by galvatron;919128ed
    Mass nationwide demonstrations failed to materialise on Friday, but protesters at mosques in Kuala Lumpur carried placards reading "Allah is only for us" and "Heresy arises from words wrongly used".
    "I hope the court will understand the feeling of the majority Muslims of Malaysia," said Ahmad Johari, at the National Mosque.
    "We can fight to the death over this issue," he told Associated Press news agency.
    The government has appealed against the court verdict and the High Court has suspended the decision's implementation until the appeal is heard.
    Some people just love to speak for the majority.

    I think more percentage of this majority of Muslim he's speaking for will prefer peace in the country over him stirring up sentiments and indirectly instigating the violent acts.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Quote Originally Posted by bella25 View Post
    I was in Kuala Lumpur recently. The anger of the muslim majority is not going to go away just because the islamic party leaders say it's OK. I spoke to a friend who's islamic practices are sporadic at best and usually very uninterested in religious issues, but he was furious. He didn't see it as a religious issue at all but non-malays taking advantage of a divided malay vote. To him, the word Allah when spoken in Malaysia ( or US, Europe and Africa where he had travelled) in any language has always referred to the muslim God, long before the Christians came as colonialists. He quoted many examples of what the Roman Catholic church ( I think he meant the Pope) had been doing to maintain good relations with other religions. And so to 'spit' ( his words) in the Muslim face is not part of the R.C. church's stand but that of the local Archbishop (who is ethnic Indian) and his Hindraf buddies ( He said Muslims just hate Hindraf) who are pariahs, ungrateful bast*** etc. I think this posting will be deleted if I used all of his words . My opinion: Whatever usage of words or laws or regulations must be acceptable to the majority, this is what democracy is. What is the point of stirring the hornet's nest when not using Allah by the Catholics or other religions is not going to affect their religions. It is just plain mischief, irresposible.
    Ok. I understand now. It's not the usage of word. It's power play. It's back to the core issue again. A group of people who think they are rightful children of the land feel that the children of the immigrants are ungrateful bastards who dare to ask for more when they have been so kindly allowed to stay in the land by the ancestor of the children of the land and being given some basic rights (I was shocked when I first read this sentiment over the internet written by a fellow Malaysian and later found that this is not an isolated case. I always felt we are all equally Malaysian born in Malaysia. ) Sigh. Malaysia use to be truly harmony in the past where different races truly mix around without ill well. That have been what I observed among the older generations. Dunno who started imparting these hatred and separation ideas between the races.
    Last edited by kidd; 01-10-10 at 10:41 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Kidd, have you read this yet? I think everyone should.

    http://rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/201...-confused.html

    It includes an article of a deep friendship that should have existed between Muslims and Christians... from the start till the end - cited from Prophet Muhammed himself.
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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Kidd, have you read this yet? I think everyone should.

    http://rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/201...-confused.html

    It includes an article of a deep friendship that should have existed between Muslims and Christians... from the start till the end - cited from Prophet Muhammed himself.
    Ok, read it.
    it imposes no conditions on Christians for enjoying its privileges. It is enough that they are Christians. They are not required to alter their beliefs, they do not have to make any payments and they do not have any obligations.
    Actually, non-Muslim living under Muslim rule has to pay a tax called jizyah under the Prophet's rule.
    The reasoning is as below

    Jizyah - (Arabic) a tax paid by non-Muslims living in a Muslim State. Since the non-Muslims are exempt from military service and taxes imposed on Muslims, they must pay this tax to compensate. It guarantees them security and protection. If the State cannot protect those who paid jizyah, then in theory the amount they paid is returned to them.
    Source: http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/words/words.html
    Last edited by kidd; 01-10-10 at 11:41 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Things went wrong somewhere, which escalated into the hostility we see today. But we cannot expect everyone to be an enlightened good man. They come in only very few numbers, sadly to say. Mankind has always been plagued by the Seven Sins - especially greed and pride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Things went wrong somewhere, which escalated into the hostility we see today. But we cannot expect everyone to be an enlightened good man. They come in only very few numbers, sadly to say. Mankind has always been plagued by the Seven Sins - especially greed and pride.
    And the need to be the one in the right.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Quote Originally Posted by bella25 View Post
    I was in Kuala Lumpur recently. The anger of the muslim majority is not going to go away just because the islamic party leaders say it's OK. I spoke to a friend who's islamic practices are sporadic at best and usually very uninterested in religious issues, but he was furious. He didn't see it as a religious issue at all but non-malays taking advantage of a divided malay vote. To him, the word Allah when spoken in Malaysia ( or US, Europe and Africa where he had travelled) in any language has always referred to the muslim God, long before the Christians came as colonialists.
    The term has been used in Sabah and Sarawak for over 400 years to refer to God in Malay. What does this Muslim friend of yours has to say about this? It's not only recently they use. It's been used for hundred of years before Sabah and Sarawak join Malaya to form Malaysia and now Home Minister suddenly said cannot use because it will 'undermine national security'.

    Like someone said here
    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/i...lam-leslie-lau

    Many Umno leaders, and even some from PAS, are now trying to portray this issue as a great challenge by the non-Muslims against the Malay/Muslims. It is incredible that Umno politicians consider Sabah and Sarawak as a vote bank but they are now supporting a denial of the constitutional rights of East Malaysians.
    Historically, Malaya wanted Sabah and Sawarak to join Malaya to form Malaysia to gain the advantage in numbers. Now, they are taking away their right to practice what has been with their culture for centuries.

    Maybe your friend should travel to Indonesia or maybe visit East Malaysia to understand the culture of his fellow Malaysians more. It's ironic that Indonesia (who also has cases of church burning and at one time even ethnic cleansing) can tolerate this while tolerant Malaysia cannot.

    http://hornbill-hornbill.blogspot.co...indonesia.html


    Quote Originally Posted by bella25 View Post
    From what I have read, using the word Allah during church services is not banned (since it is limited to the congregation of the religion), but using the word in print, specifically the Herald is banned. Also, there are many words for god in Malaysian if the aim is to translate it to the vernacular language. My dictionary says such as Tuhan, Yang esa, Maha-tuhan. But Allah is Arabic for al-ilahi .... The God.
    Someone write a long article about why it's not so easy to substitute 'Allah' with 'Tuhan'.

    http://www.mysinchew.com/node/33523?tid=14
    Last edited by kidd; 01-11-10 at 02:20 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Member Bei Rongkun's Avatar
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    good post above.

    regardless anything do destructive act to other place of worship is terrible terrible thing.

    it is hard to understand some feels insecure about their heaven *just* because some one share their GOD word, but confident to use a violence. ironic.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    All is not lost though. I'm happy to read this. Now that's the spirit of goodwill and harmony.

    http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...629&sec=nation

    Muslim NGOs offer help to protect churches
    Monday, 11 January 2010 00:33 |

    KUALA LUMPUR: Muslim non-governmental groups have come forward to offer their help in preventing further attacks on churches.

    Volunteers from the groups will work alongside Rela members to be on the lookout for suspicious characters near churches and alert the authorities if they see something amiss.

    The groups — from 130 Muslim NGOs — will concentrate their efforts in Kuala Lumpur and Selangor before expanding to other states with the help of more Muslim NGOs.

    Muslim Consumers Association Malaysia executive secretary Datuk Nadzim Johan said yesterday that volunteers would drive by churches within their areas twice a day to look out for suspicious characters.

    “It’s important for these people to know that they are being watched.”

    “We wouldn’t want our Christian brothers to be in danger. This is an offer of peace and goodwill,” he said.

    Selangor Rela director Brigadier Khairi Mohd Alwee said his 70,000 men would do their best to provide security.
    Last edited by kidd; 01-11-10 at 02:39 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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