What would have been Dook Goo Kau Bai's judgment on the Greats?

[Ken Cheng]

If Dook Goo Kau Bai could have seen the L/ROCH era Greats exhibiting the best of their martial arts skills, what would have been his judgment on them?

[PJ]

Since Ren Woxing was enough to afford him exhilaration, I'm sure the Greats would absolutely stun Lonely-Seeking-A-Win.

[tape]

Since he'd be more than a match for them in his 40's when he raped faces with the Heavy Iron Sword, I'd say he'd be pretty bored and disappointed if we're talking about older Dugu.

[Ren Wo Xing]

At what point in time, Ken? Big difference between LOCH/ROCH Greats, and big differences at each level of DGQB's sword progression.

[PJ]

Since he'd be more than a match for them in his 40's when he raped faces with the Heavy Iron Sword, I'd say he'd be pretty bored and disappointed if we're talking about older Dugu.

it's a stretch to say Dugu in his 30s (when he used the HIS) > the Greats. We have no idea what level of martial arts he was at at that point. Just knowing which technique someone has doesn't indicate his overall martial arts level.

Besides, the question is what judgment would Dugu Qiubai exercise on the Greats. Since he would be impressed with Ren Woxing (even if he can defeat Ren), it's quite likely that he would be more impressed with the Greats (even if he can defeat the Greats).

[tape]

it's a stretch to say Dugu in his 30s (when he used the HIS) > the Greats. We have no idea what level of martial arts he was at at that point. Just knowing which technique someone has doesn't indicate his overall martial arts level.

Besides, the question is what judgment would Dugu Qiubai exercise on the Greats. Since he would be impressed with Ren Woxing (even if he can defeat Ren), it's quite likely that he would be more impressed with the Greats (even if he can defeat the Greats).

That was a bit tongue in cheek

But I'd think Yang Guo with 1 month of HIS was able to easily match the Greats, then Dugu should be able to also. Yang Guo could be amazing and this is not true, but I think it is more probable that Dugu is more talented than Yang Guo. For other techniques it might not be telling of their ability, but since HIS is akin to Qian Kun in that it is almost entirely inner power driven, anyone who is able to use HIS effectively is close to Great level, much like all Qian Kun users of a certain level are probably similar.

This thread is probably a round the bout way of comparing Dugu/Greats etc isn't it? If not, there isn't much to refute your quote.

[PJ]

But I'd think Yang Guo with 1 month of HIS was able to easily match the Greats, then Dugu should be able to also. Yang Guo could be amazing and this is not true, but I think it is more probable that Dugu is more talented than Yang Guo. For other techniques it might not be telling of their ability, but since HIS is akin to Qian Kun in that it is almost entirely inner power driven, anyone who is able to use HIS effectively is close to Great level, much like all Qian Kun users of a certain level are probably similar.

Even if a martial artist is extremely bright, he needs certain conditions to reach a high level quickly. As someone pointed out in another thread, Zhang Wuji was able to master Qiankun Danuoyi in a few hours, whereas the normal time was decades. Zhang was able to do this because he first mastered 9 Yang Shen Gong, a powerful internal energy that met the upper level requirements of Qiankun Danuoyi. Similarly, Yang Guo received the precious snake bladder, which boosted his internal energy greatly. Without it, no matter how gifted, he wouldn't have made such fast progress with HIS. It's not clear how much internal energy Dugu Qiubai had at the time of his HIS. But since he is not known to have encountered any special luck (doesn't mean he didn't, we just can't assume he did), it would take him longer to get to Great-level than the Trilogy protagonists.

[tape]

I don't see it being unreasonable that Dugu would not have abandoned his earlier swords until he developed a working version of HIS. Considering he was already very proficient in martial arts before HIS, he did have a lot of time to train up inner power. One does not go about creating martial arts based solely on their inner strength if they are lacking in it. The creators of various martial arts are generally very proficient in that field, whether its sword, palm, inner art, lightness etc and I think we should give Dugu the benefit of the doubt -- that he would not be creating inner strength dependent sword techniques without having great inner strength himself.

[pannonian]

If nothing else, he would have enjoyed discussing MA theory with the Greats. Among the Great level fighters of LOCH and ROCH, Qiu Qianren sticks out as someone who hasn't shown any imagination in going beyond merely practicing martial arts. With the possible exception of Duan Zhixing, who mastered YYZ to a level beyond most of his ancestors, the others were all shown to have created or adapted their own martial arts, creating Great-level skills. Huang Yaoshi and Wang Chongyang might be his preferred opponents for their creativeness, although Duan Zhixing's Duan family arts might interest him too.

[PJ]

I don't see it being unreasonable that Dugu would not have abandoned his earlier swords until he developed a working version of HIS. Considering he was already very proficient in martial arts before HIS, he did have a lot of time to train up inner power. One does not go about creating martial arts based solely on their inner strength if they are lacking in it. The creators of various martial arts are generally very proficient in that field, whether its sword, palm, inner art, lightness etc and I think we should give Dugu the benefit of the doubt -- that he would not be creating inner strength dependent sword techniques without having great inner strength himself.

'High' and 'Low' are relative. Huang Yaoshi confessed that he in his 20s did not have Yin Kexi-level internal energy (when he marveled at Yang Guo's roar). So is that high or low internal energy? Back to the point. What I'm getting at is that Yang Guo had a special circumstance which allowed his internal energy to boost up quickly. Dugu Qiubai likely did not have this luxury, and probably neither did Huang Yaoshi; that's why Huang took longer to get to Great-level internal energy than Yang or Guo Jing (and some other lucky protagonists).

One does NOT have to reach Yang Guo's level of internal energy to be considered 'effective' in HIS. In Dugu Qiubai's era, there was likely no one significantly strong (as inferred by his pleasantry to meet Ren Woxing). If, for example, he had 50% of HIS-Yang Guo's internal energy, he might still be the strongest warrior of the era, and his mastery of HIS would HAVE to be considered 'great', since there would be no one stronger to compare to.

And yes, I do believe the standard of martial arts in LOCH/ROCH is higher than that of Dugu Qiubai's era. Reason 1 is due to author's remark in SPW that Dugu would be pleased to fight Ren Woxing; reason 2 is a general trend that Pre-novel eras are weaker than novel eras.

I don't reject the possibility that Dugu Qiubai in his 30s could be > the ROCH Greats (90 years old), but my opinion is it's unlikely.

[tape]

Using Huang Yaoshi as a benchmark is a bit arbitrary, as the descriptions of Dugu seemed to indicate that he was on a higher level than the Greats. He should have more talent and have progressed more and at a faster rate.

About the Ren Woxing comment, perhaps Dugu would have been happy to discuss theory with Ren, as he was supremely brilliant and was able to come up with skills like Essence Absorbing, but in practical martial arts he was still X times inferior. Athena strongly believes that the LOCH greats took 7 days to discuss martial arts theories along with fighting, even though Wang Chongyang was miles ahead of them. Dugu is likely in the same boat, being many times stronger than Ren but happy to meet at least someone remarkable.

I understand your relativity comment, but I don't agree with it only because of the unique nature of HIS. Can 50% YG inner strength even swing the damn thing quick enough? He was certainly struggling before the gall bladders. Considering the fact that Dugu had previous sword arts that he dropped for HIS, which implies HIS better be superior, and the fact that HIS is only operable if you reach a certain amount of inner strength (which we know is at least much greater than pre-gall bladder YG), Dugu seems to have at the very bare minimum somewhere in the neighborhood of LOCH Guo Jing when he even began thinking up the blueprints of HIS.

I'd imagine he was at least able to swing around the sword to some extant before he decided to make a sword art around it. It's not too farfetched that when he began wandering at the age of 30 that he'd been swinging the sword around for a couple years now and should have developed some serious power.

[forgot password]

Lonely Dugu sure will wanna experience Yideng's 1 Yang finger, and I dare put all my money on the bet that he will be extremely pleased.

[minutemanwayne]

If Yang Guo was able to eat gallbladders that boosted his energy why couldn't Dugu? Afterall the Great Condor was around when Dugu was alive. Heck he could of ate alot more than Yang Guo did.

[shortsight]

I've said all along that Dugu was fake. He was the insane sword god after losing to Xuzhu DGSD, and psycho himself into thinking he's still unbeatable, making up stories while inscribing into his sword tomb. His insanity reached maximum when he was bitten by a bird suffering from UV ray cancer. Thus his whole body grew feathers, mouth morphed into beak, hands into wings, and finally became an insane immortal bird which has obsession with snake gallbladders. He's then known as brother condor in ROCH!

[Ken Cheng]

If Yang Guo was able to eat gallbladders that boosted his energy why couldn't Dugu? Afterall the Great Condor was around when Dugu was alive. Heck he could of ate alot more than Yang Guo did.

They couldn't have been that common, or everybody and his brother would have been downing them and turning into supermen.

[PJ]

If Yang Guo was able to eat gallbladders that boosted his energy why couldn't Dugu? Afterall the Great Condor was around when Dugu was alive. Heck he could of ate alot more than Yang Guo did.

They are reserved for Lucky Protagonists Who Fall Down A Cliff (TM).

[Dennis Chen]

I don't know why people seem to think Huang Yaoshi and perhaps Wang Chongyang were martial arts geniuses over say Hong Qi or Ouyang Feng. Hong Qi was constantly coming up with new ways to defeat Ouyang Feng, he just didn't codify the stuff he came up with into a system and give it a name. Probably because he was lazy. Ouyang Feng was also coming up with new moves to defeat Hong Qi, unfortunately, his nephew/son gave away his new master moves to Hong Qi before he could use it.

The last fight between Hong Qi and Ouyang Feng showed what amazing martial arts theorists they both were; Ouyang Feng broke all the stances of Dog Beating Stick for crying out loud.

Amonst the 5 Greats, I don't think it's a question of ability or intelligence. It's a question of personality and time.

[pannonian]

I don't know why people seem to think Huang Yaoshi and perhaps Wang Chongyang were martial arts geniuses over say Hong Qi or Ouyang Feng. Hong Qi was constantly coming up with new ways to defeat Ouyang Feng, he just didn't codify the stuff he came up with into a system and give it a name. Probably because he was lazy. Ouyang Feng was also coming up with new moves to defeat Hong Qi, unfortunately, his nephew/son gave away his new master moves to Hong Qi before he could use it.

The last fight between Hong Qi and Ouyang Feng showed what amazing martial arts theorists they both were; Ouyang Feng broke all the stances of Dog Beating Stick for crying out loud.

Amonst the 5 Greats, I don't think it's a question of ability or intelligence. It's a question of personality and time.

Note that I didn't mention Yang Guo or Guo Jing, despite their being accomplished practical theorists in their own right. I think Dugu Qiubai would be most interested in Wang Chongyang and Huang Yaoshi because their ideas are the most different from his own. Similarly with Duan Zhixing and his Duan family arts, although among the proper Greats (not counting Qiu Qianren) he's shown less creativity than the others. Hong Qigong's and Ouyang Feng's martial arts seem to have already be covered by Dugu Qiubai's ideas. While Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu's combined swordplay might intrigue him for a while, he would probably reject it as short of theoretical perfection. His favorite sparring partner though would probably be Zhang Sanfeng.

[Dennis Chen]

Honestly, I think Dugu Qiubai would be interested in Wang Chongyang's Xian Tian Gong, but I doubt Dugu Qiubai would be impressed with Wang's sword theories even though he may be impressed with Wang's use of it. Same with Huang Yaoshi, though Dugu would probably more impressed with Finger Snap than Huang's sword theories.

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on the Quanzhen/Jade Maiden combo being theoretically imperfect because Lin Chaoying made sure that the theory behind it was absolutely complete where Jade Maiden's true expression is being paired with Quanzhen swordplay, not countering it. I can see how adding L/R hand technique to the mix where L/R can't be learned by just anybody might make it imperfect even though even L/R hand technique sprouted from the mind of somebody who's main foundation was Quanzhen arts that he learned and mastered. Conversely, DG9J isn't a martial art that would allow just anyone to become a martial arts master, it required a lot of quick and nimble thinking; if Guo Jing had to learn it, he'd probably never master it.

I think it's pretty cool how Jin Yong made Quanzhen swordplay+Jade Maiden Swordplay+L/R hand technique into such a powerful trifecta as evidenced by Xiao Longnu's use of it. Too bad he didn't take it much farther than that to it's ultimate expression because Xiao Longnu gave up practicing martial arts when she fell down the valley instead of integrating the 3 into a single form. I think Xiao Longnu would be a match for any Great.

One thing for sure, Ancient Tomb internal can't be Daoist.

In the end, assuming Dugu Qiubai is the all powerful Sword Demon God that so many people think he is, I think of anybody, it is the sword theory of Lin Chaoying who could match Dugu Qiubai's sword assuming it was Wang and Lin fighting/theorizing against him. Though it'd be 2 against 1 without L/R hand technique.

Lin+Wang versus Dugu Qiubai. That'd be a fight worth paying any amount for.

[pannonian]

I think he'd be interested in those martial arts that aren't so directly expressed in his sword theories. Hence finger snap, formations, internal, that kind of thing. Wang Chongyang and Huang Yaoshi explored that in the arts, moreso than the other Greats.

Re: combined swordplay. Its non-lethality would make him shake his head at the waste of energy. What would intrigue him is how it seems to evoke emotions, not just in the practitioners, but also those watching. After analysing that to death, he would probably discard that too as something that distracts from the purity of the sword. If emotions can allow one a better understanding of the sword, then it's an acceptable route to perfection. But the sword is everything.

Are there any other particularly different martial arts in LOCH and ROCH that Dugu Qiubai might have been interested in? I'm discounting novels written after ROCH, because the martial arts got wilder and wilder with each successive novel, whereas LOCH and ROCH were at least recognisably the same MA world.