Is Yang Guo a Gary Stu (Mary Sue)?

[Dennis Chen]

Let's find out:

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

[Ken Cheng]

I could tell you the answer to that one without even taking the quiz, Dennis.

[Ren Ying Ying]

from reading the questions on that form, it probably puts 90% of wuxia protagonists at the "risk" of being gary-ish (or mary-ish

[Ken Cheng]

from reading the questions on that form, it probably puts 90% of wuxia protagonists at the "risk" of being gary-ish (or mary-ish

True. There's even a school of thought that argues that ALL protagonists are Garys/Marys.

Even so, some protagonists are more egregious than others in this; Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl must rank among the most egregious of all. Personally, for me, they take the cake (and the pie and the custard).

[jiang bao]

The biggest Gary Stu in the JY universe is ROCH GJ. In ROCH, he is the near perfect character. Compared to the LOCH version, the character then becomes more self-contradictory, but JY appeared to want to create a legendary Yue Fei archtype for ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

The biggest Gary Stu in the JY universe is ROCH GJ.

Nope.

1). Not smart.

2). Not good-looking.

3). Not every young female he met fell head-over-heels for him.

4). Not universally liked by the "cool" characters (i.e. East Heretic Wong Yerk See).

5). Never became outright, undisputed best martial artist in either of the novels he appeared in.

6). Got foisted with Gwok Fu as his daughter in ROCH.

7). Made to look "uncool" (i.e. objection to Yeung Gor/Little Dragon Girl relationship) to bolster ROCH's *real* Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

Gwok Jing is far from the most egregious offender here.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Nope.

1). Not smart.

2). Not good-looking.

3). Not every young female he met fell head-over-heels for him.

4). Not universally liked by the "cool" characters (i.e. East Heretic Wong Yerk See).

5). Never became outright, undisputed best martial artist in either of the novels he appeared in.

6). Got foisted with Gwok Fu as his daughter in ROCH.

7). Made to look "uncool" (i.e. objection to Yeung Gor/Little Dragon Girl relationship) to bolster ROCH's *real* Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

Gwok Jing is far from the most egregious offender here.

don't only focus on the minor detail and ignore the glaring ones.

1) Extremely "morally upright" (probably the biggest factor, including aspects of "honor", "integrety", "friendship")

2) Youngest to achieve a certain level of accomplishment (in his story)

3) Even when it's specifically written that he lacks the talent or the brains, the author still finds some random excuse to why he can accomplish certain feats that he should otherwise not be capable of.

4) Well liked & respected by the "elite" in society (Hong Qigong/Zhou Botong for martial arts world, Genghis Khan in political world. Huang Yaoshi liked him well enough to let Huang Rong marry him in the end.)

5) Characters have expressed "jealousy" or "envy" towards him (ie. Ouyang Ke, Yang Kang, and even Yin Zhiping)

6) Often portrayed as "courageous" and "selfless".

and frankly, Guo Jing is an established character in LOCH. The vast majority of you so-called reasons are drawn from ROCH--a story in which he is hardly a major character. If you're really going to bring up Guo Fu, why not also bring up Guo Xiang--founder of one of the largest sects. And for all your "made to look uncool" instances, there were multiple more incidences that supposedly made him "look cool" (fight one vs. 5 or 1 vs. 98, selfless in rescuing main protagonist, etc).

Though, if we were to take the condor trilogy, the biggest offender IMO is neither Guo Jing nor Yang Guo. It's actually Zhang Wuji. What was his "flaw"? Being too kind? Sure, some state that he's "undecisive". But if you traced down to it, he was only "undecisive" because he was "too kind".

[Ken Cheng]

1) Extremely "morally upright" (probably the biggest factor, including aspects of "honor", "integrety", "friendship")

Yeah, but see how even this virtue got twisted against him in ROCH for the Icks' sake: "morally upright" got twisted into "morally uptight" and narrow-minded.

That totally wasn't necessary, except to service the Icks.

3) Well liked by the "respected" and "high" in society (Hong Qigong for martial arts world, Genghis Khan in political world)

But balanced by that the "cool" East Heretic never really liked him.

4) Often portrayed as "brave" and "selfless".

Which is pretty standard fare for wuxia heroes...even Yeung Gor (although the "selfless" part sort of comes and goes in Yeung Gor's case).

If you're really going to bring up Guo Fu, why not also bring up Guo Xiang--founder of one of the largest sects.

Because he gets more guff for having raised a Gwok Fu than credit for having raised a Gwok Seung. People say Gwok Fu was as "dumb as her father;" they never say that Gwok Seung was "as brave and noble as her father." In fact, people are more apt to compare Gwok Seung to Yeung Gor than to Gwok Jing.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yeah, but see how even this virtue got twisted against him in ROCH for the Icks' sake: "morally upright" got twisted into "morally uptight" and narrow-minded.

That totally wasn't necessary, except to service the Icks.

that's still "morally" upright. plus, as i wrote before, Guo Jing's story is actually LOCH. His role in ROCH is minimal (at least fairly small compared to other characters).

But balanced by that the "cool" East Heretic never really liked him.

enough to marry Huang Rong off to him. Plus, if you're counting all the "elites". Hong Qigong likes him. Yideng is favorable towards him. Zhou Botong obviously likes him. The Quanzhen 7 likes him. The "good guys" in the Beggar Clan likes him. The only one that honestly "hated" him was Ouyang Feng, but he doesn't count since he's the "villian".

Which is pretty standard fare for wuxia heroes...even Yeung Gor (although the "selfless" part sort of comes and goes in Yeung Gor's case).

but selfish and backstabbing thoughts had at least crossed Yang Guo's mind (ie "screw the world, i only live for myself" and attempting to "kill Guo Jing"). Yang Guo is probably the only character in the Jin Yong universe that actually has the intention to "harm others" for "selfish reasons".
I can't say the same for Guo Jing. He probably lies on the far opposite side of the scale (along with Zhang Wuji). Has he ever even "thought" about "wronging" others? He wouldn't even break off his engagement to Huazhen for the sake of "keeping his word".

Because he gets more guff for having raised a Gwok Fu than credit for having raised a Gwok Seung. People say Gwok Fu was as "dumb as her father;" they never say that Gwok Seung was "as brave and noble as her father." In fact, people are more apt to compare Gwok Seung to Yeung Gor than to Gwok Jing.

where do you get that from? just b/c spcnet has a tendency to put flak on Guo Fu?

[Ken Cheng]

where do you get that from? just b/c spcnet has a tendency to put flak on Guo Fu?

Gosh...y'think?

[jiang bao]

Nope.

1). Not smart.

2). Not good-looking.

3). Not every young female he met fell head-over-heels for him.

4). Not universally liked by the "cool" characters (i.e. East Heretic Wong Yerk See).

5). Never became outright, undisputed best martial artist in either of the novels he appeared in.

6). Got foisted with Gwok Fu as his daughter in ROCH.

7). Made to look "uncool" (i.e. objection to Yeung Gor/Little Dragon Girl relationship) to bolster ROCH's *real* Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

Gwok Jing is far from the most egregious offender here.

Lets do the same thing for ROCH GJ then:
1) Flawless
2) Not even one selfish thought
3) Perfect marriage
4) Universally respected, even by enemies
5) Yue Fei archtype

Then lets go back to LOCH GJ too:
1) Gets a gf way too good for him
2) Princess loves him even though he’s an idiot
3) Only reason why more girls didn’t fall for him was because there were fewer female characters. 3 out of 4 fell for him if you count Ms. Cheng. 2 out of 3 minimum if only significant chars are counted. That’s about the same ratio as YG
4) Gets hailed as hero and YK gets labeled as “traitor” even though GJ was the one who betrayed his home country
5) His supporting cast isn’t so lucky, but he gets the luckiest breaks on earth
6) Goes from Forrest Gump to top martial artist in several years

How was GJ “uncool” in ROCH. Characters loved him for his orthodox views. In terms of readers, not too many thought him a dork for objecting. And YG was never the top undisputed martial artist in ROCH.