If we want to talk more about Gu Long at this forum, then we need to try harder...

[Ken Cheng]

...when talking about Gu Long.

I keep on reading complaints that this forum is too oriented towards Jin Yong and there isn't enough Gu Long discussion. That much is a fact: the sheer ratio of Jin Yong-related threads and posts to Gu Long-related threads and posts is overwhelmingly in Jin Yong's favor.

Should it be that way? Not necessarily, but it is mainly because we, the forum members, take or express the entirely wrong attitude towards Gu Long discussion that kills much enthusiasm for discussing his work.

We know that Gu Long was not as consistent a writer as Jin Yong in terms of overall quality, and that he sometimes had inexplicable lapses in narrative logic and character development that Jin Yong seldom had. We also know that Gu Long generally wasn't as fond as Jin Yong was in writing painstaking descriptions of how various characters' martial arts worked.

Fine, but even so, if we REALLY want to have more Gu Long discussion at this forum, then when Gu Long topics come up, we need to do better than just shrug, roll our eyes, and say, "Oh, well. It's Gu Long. He was drunk/high and that's how he writes."

That might all be true, but it doesn't lend itself to more discussion; it just kills the thread dead...like a man at the point of Sai Mun Chui Sheut's sword.

So I paraphrase or quote Gandhi and say be the change you want to see: if you want to see more discussion about Gu Long, then DISCUSS Gu Long...don't kill Gu Long discussions by making the usual excuses for him.

[Bei Rongkun]

with all the jin yong heroes already talk to death (not really) it is now the time for Gu Long character to being discuss. like, who is more handsome, LXF or CLX?

seriously i like to read more about gu long also.

[Ken Cheng]

with all the jin yong heroes already talk to death (not really) it is now the time for Gu Long character to being discuss. like, who is more handsome, LXF or CLX?

seriously i like to read more about gu long also.

There have been numerous attempts, but each time, we've quit like Democrats on health care.

[smurf120]

I tried to drum up some interest in other novels with the "playboy" thread but people seem to enjoy talking about MJST more?

[Han Solo]

GL threads.


Would love to talk more about it. Missing our resident GL expert like TigerWong and Meh. Kidd is pretty good though, as well as ppl like chickenfeet and mawgurl.

I think that ppl are genuinely interested in GL stories.
If you have a look at the Wuxia Translation subforum, some of the best viewed stories are the GL translations. It is just that good a story sometimes.

Han Solo

[kidd]

I think people are still more familiar with JY novels.

The GL thread's popularity will depend on the popularity characters. 'The Sai Mun Chui Sheut Glorification Thread' seems to fair quite well while other LXF related theads are not so successful. Threads that include JY's characters in the discussion will also be more well received such as 'Some Gu Long characters are sent to assassinate some Jin Yong characters' and 'Wuxia Righteousness Battle - Challenge for Li Xunhuan'.

[flamer]

How can we discuss A vs B when it's 'sword that freezes time' vs 'one that never misses' or things like that.

[bliss]

How can we discuss A vs B when it's 'sword that freezes time' vs 'one that never misses' or things like that.

In the case of Gu Long, it's never really about the feats but definitely much more about author's intent and the psychological states of the characters.

For example, the scenario you put forth above is easy. Reason being? Yan 13's sword only brings death. Li's dagger is guided by righteousness. Author's intent always suggests that righteousness will triumph over death.

The result? Li's dagger would unfreeze time or wormhole its way through time to lodge itself into Yan 13's throat.

[PJ]

And someone such as Reverend Zhiguang's kindness would pierce through Li's dagger, only to please Li for he has founder a more generous hero.

This theory is quite flawed though, because it assumes that martial arts skills are not important. But in reality it is quite important.

[Trinie]

It's not just with GL, but even with JY... I have noticed that most of the topics are on the trilogy and JY's most popular stories only. I hardly even see any discussions on JY's less popular stories like Bi Xue Jian, Xia Ke Xing or Lian Cheng Jue. It is always HSDS, ROCH, LOCH or DGSD. I don't even hear much about DOMD which I think is one of JY's best stories....

[bliss]

And someone such as Reverend Zhiguang's kindness would pierce through Li's dagger, only to please Li for he has founder a more generous hero.

This theory is quite flawed though, because it assumes that martial arts skills are not important. But in reality it is quite important.

I used to think so too, but I think Gu Long's basis for who's stronger is just fundamentally different from Jin Yong. Whereas in Jin Yong's world, the outcome of a battle between two combatants is probably 90% or so decided by who actually has the stronger martial arts, in Gu Long's world it's more like 50% martial arts, 50% psychological and other factors (i.e.- terrain, environment).

The most famous example is of course Li Xunhuan vs. Shangguan Jinhong. By all accounts, SGJH's martial arts were definitely ahead of LXH's. But yet, Jing Wuming quite clearly stated that he believed Li was the clear victor simply because of overwhelming righteousness.

Another example is Chu Liuxiang, who constantly defeated enemies much stronger than he was through his intellect (Stone Guanyin) and his use of his surrounding environment (Water Matriarch).

Yet another example is Ah Fei, whose power fluctuated greatly with his self-confidence. He went from being inferior to Jing Wuming to stopping just short of stabbing his throat, not through advancing his martial arts, but from regaining his confidence in himself.

All in all, I think a lot of the times we are too used to Jin Yong's black-or-white version of martial arts superiority as being the de facto standard that we all too quickly discount or misunderstand Gu Long's interpretation of superiority in which martial arts level was only one factor.

[PJ]

50-50 seems ok, and I have no problem with all the examples you provided. Shangguan Jinhong isn't that much better than Li, not like 10 times better. Chu Liuxiang's win against Water Matriarch had little to do with martial arts. Ah Fei vs Jing Wuming, again similar actual level.

But for Gu Long to say something like "Li is righteous, therefore he will always win," if we take that absolutely, it assumes that even if someone is 10 times stronger than Li, Li would still win. I think that is not realistic, and we cannot accept that righteousness trumps all, and in fact it's only part of the equation (whereas Gu Long placed too much emphasis on that for Li).

[Dirt]

People like Chu Liu Xiang and Lu Xiao Feng always struck me as Gu Long's version of Hard Boiled Private Eyes. Urban knight-errants who lived in the dark, gritty cities of America. Keen observers of the human psyche who were paid investigators but also had a personal code of honor that they never wavered from.

A lot of those folk were good in fights; don't get in the Continental Op's way, he'd kick your arse up and down and all around, Sam Spade was good in a fight but only when he had to, Phillip Marlowe probably could go a few rounds with anybody but preferred to use his wits. But then there was also Lew Archer who got smacked around quite a bit.

Jin Yong's fights were almost like police procedurals, going step by step on how the investigator solved the crime. Gu Long was like hard boiled detective novels, where determining the psychology and motivations of the criminals were more important the step by step solving of the crime itself.

[tape]

50-50 seems ok, and I have no problem with all the examples you provided. Shangguan Jinhong isn't that much better than Li, not like 10 times better. Chu Liuxiang's win against Water Matriarch had little to do with martial arts. Ah Fei vs Jing Wuming, again similar actual level.

But for Gu Long to say something like "Li is righteous, therefore he will always win," if we take that absolutely, it assumes that even if someone is 10 times stronger than Li, Li would still win. I think that is not realistic, and we cannot accept that righteousness trumps all, and in fact it's only part of the equation (whereas Gu Long placed too much emphasis on that for Li).

Perhaps we are taking it way too literal even though if you dissect it on a grammatic level, you would be correct.

Li specifically has a one shot kill against anyone given the right circumstances. He is also most likely not more than 2x weaker than anyone in history that he will ever encounter. For him and for him specifically, being righteous could empower his dagger enough to defeat anyone.

It's kind of like when announcers say John Smith can always dominate his opposition in basketball due to his size(he is the biggest guy currently). You shouldn't really be extrapolating it and saying, so what if a 10 foot 500 pound guy were to start playing, would he still be dominating with his size?

The statement about Li can be read that Of his battles he has fought in his life...he has won due to righteousness. Semantics wise, if all his opposition was equal to him in every aspect except in righteousness, he has won due to righteousness even if that wasn't all that was necessary. He still needs his speed and skill, but the righteousness is what tipped the duel.

Edit: I'm not sure if you're doing an ARTS type thing of taking everything literal, but just in case you're not I thought I'd chime in. This seems like one of those Zhang Sanfeng can do what his hearts desires type comments, and not necessary to dissect that deeply or be aggrieved about.

[PJ]

The question is when to take something literally, and when to not. It's not always intuitive, nor is it always agreed upon between different readers.

The line that is at the heart of the righteousness debate is this:

一个人若为了公道和正义而战，就绝不会败。

One who fights for justice and righteousness will never lose.

It seems like one of those philosophical Gu Long statements which we're all familiar with. You can either view it as an extra line only there to pad the book's thickness, or some kind of "author's intent."

[athlee]

The question is when to take something literally, and when to not. It's not always intuitive, nor is it always agreed upon between different readers.

The line that is at the heart of the righteousness debate is this:

一个人若为了公道和正义而战，就绝不会败。

One who fights for justice and righteousness will never lose.

It seems like one of those philosophical Gu Long statements which we're all familiar with. You can either view it as an extra line only there to pad the book's thickness, or some kind of "author's intent."

I read this phrase as a more general view wherein the 'never lose' part refers to the war (or life in general) instead of the current battle. However, I believe that GL meant this literally. Li seems to be his avatar or favoured son who in his mind will never lose.

[bliss]

The question is when to take something literally, and when to not. It's not always intuitive, nor is it always agreed upon between different readers.

The line that is at the heart of the righteousness debate is this:

一个人若为了公道和正义而战，就绝不会败。

One who fights for justice and righteousness will never lose.

It seems like one of those philosophical Gu Long statements which we're all familiar with. You can either view it as an extra line only there to pad the book's thickness, or some kind of "author's intent."

The line you quoted was narration, but you left out the whole dialogue that Jing Wuming had explaining the very same thing. Even he at first didn't quite understand how Li managed to win. Only after a while did he realized that Li won because of righteousness and that because his dagger fought for the side of good, that it couldn't be defeated.

Now, narration can be interpreted as fluff or author's intent, but an entire dialogue from a villain explaining just that very same point is hard to discount. I just can't really see Jing Wuming having any motivation to make that up, or to polish Li's reputation.

[kidd]

In Gu Long's novels, God always help the righteous.

The righteous will always defeat the unrighteous.

[bliss]

50-50 seems ok, and I have no problem with all the examples you provided. Shangguan Jinhong isn't that much better than Li, not like 10 times better. Chu Liuxiang's win against Water Matriarch had little to do with martial arts. Ah Fei vs Jing Wuming, again similar actual level.

But for Gu Long to say something like "Li is righteous, therefore he will always win," if we take that absolutely, it assumes that even if someone is 10 times stronger than Li, Li would still win. I think that is not realistic, and we cannot accept that righteousness trumps all, and in fact it's only part of the equation (whereas Gu Long placed too much emphasis on that for Li).

I agree, I don't think Gu Long meant that absolutely. If that were the case, any random soldier fighting for righteousness could take down "Universe Reverser" Xiaoyao Hou. It's more of an explanation of why Li, who was inferior in martial arts to Shangguan, was able to beat him. I think this sort of "confidence" they had was due to their righteousness. Hence why Li had to make sure Ye Kai was taught compassion and forgiveness before ever passing down his dagger skill to him. I guess you could say it's similar to the compassion and benevolence needed to master Shaolin arts a la Sweeper.

One interesting note I found while perusing Chu Liuxiang for examples, it turns out the famous pirate was also powered by righteousness... Whereas we are told 2nd hand about Li's righteousness, Chu Liuxiang actually states HIMSELF that because he has never committed evil, that he is confident that he will never lose!

I postulated before that I believe Gu Long's writing is almost post-modern in the fact that it seems some of his characters subtlely break the fourth wall by realizing that they are the heroes of their novels, and hence are subject to Hero treatment thus having the confidence that they will never lose to evil.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Here is the entire text of the relevant passage in question, translated by yours truly in the Bordertown Wanderer thread:

Jing Wuming said, "Although Shangguan Jinhong died by Li Xunhuan's hands, his skill in martial arts truly was above that of Li Xunhuan."

Ye Kai was listening.

The battle between Shangguan Jinhong and Li Xunhuan had already become a myth in the martial world.

Myths are always beautiful and moving to hear, but are rarely accurate.

Jing Wuming said, "The reason Li Xunhuan was capable of killing Shangguan Jinhong was not because of his skill in martial arts. It was because of his confidence."

Li Xunhuan had always been confident that righteousness would prevail over wickedness in the end, and that justice would endure forever. That is why he won.

Jing Wuming said, "When they fought, I was the only witness to their battle. I could tell that his skill in martial arts truly was inferior to that of Shangguan Jinhong's. All this time, I could not understand how he achieved victory."

He slowly continued, "But now, I understand. The true value of a weapon lies not in the weapon itself, but what it is used to do."

Ye Kai agreed.

Jing Wuming said, "The reason Li Xunhuan was able to kill Shangguan Jinhong was because he wasn't fighting for the sake of killing itself. Every action he took, he could justify with a clear conscience both to heaven and to men."

If a man is to fight on behalf of justice and righteousness, he definitely will not be defeated.

Jing Wuming said, "If Bai Xiaosheng understood this logic, he should have ranked Li Xunhuan's dagger as the number one weapon."

Ye Kai was looking at him. Suddenly, he felt an unspeakable reverence and respect towards this difficult-to-understand man.

Anyone who could understand this type of logic was a man worthy of respect and reverence.

Unlike Jinyong, Gulong lines really can't be taken out of their context and inspected on a stand-alone basis. In this proper context, I think it is quite clear what Gulong/Jing Wuming was saying; that although Li Xunhuan's technical proficiency in martial arts was inferior to that of Shangguan Jinhong, the confidence he gained from his certainty that he was fighting on behalf of justice and righteousness allowed him to be victorious.

As bliss already pointed out, in Gulong battles, confidence is a hugely important part of determining a victor in martial arts. This cannot be extrapolated to mean that all one needs is confidence; rather, just that confidence, especially confidence born of righteousness, is a critical factor which many people (be it characters, other authors, or readers) often overlook in comparing martial artists.