Wuxia Righteousness Battle - Challenge for Li Xunhuan

[bliss]

In Gu Long Canon, Little Li Flying Dagger Li Xunhuan is widely considered (by Gu Long himself through narration) as the most righteous of heroes, and hence invincible under heaven. Whether that fact itself is true is debatable but for the sake of argument, are there any other heroes in wuxia (either JY or GL) that could be considered as being MORE righteous than Li? Who would you vote as the MOST righteous of all heroes?

Many might be tempted to answer GJ, but for his involvement in leading the Mongol armies early on, I'd have to disqualify him since he was responsible (blindly following orders or not) for the killing of massive numbers of people.

My vote would probably have to go to Hua Manlou or Hong Qigong.

[tape]

Hong Qigong missed some important meetings that presumably caused some innocent people to suffer. I think that goes against him because his sense of righteousness was overcome by his gluttonous nature. Not to say it's a major character flaw, but it's enough to say that he didn't place righteousness first in his life and probably wouldn't be the most righteous of all characters.

I'm betting there's some minor character that takes the cake, but for now I'm going to nominate one of the Wudang heroes; probably Muo Shenggu or Yu Lianzhou.

[PJ]

Why not the obvious choice?

The God of Justice, The Justice of God, IRON-FACED JUSTICE GOD IMPARTIAL JUDGE Shan Zheng! Whose name was synonymous with righteousness.

Another choice would be Reverend Zhiguang, who was known throughout the realm for sacrificing his health for the well-being of the common people.

[bliss]

Why not the obvious choice?

The God of Justice, The Justice of God, IRON-FACED JUSTICE GOD IMPARTIAL JUDGE Shan Zheng! Whose name was synonymous with righteousness.

Another choice would be Reverend Zhiguang, who was known throughout the realm for sacrificing his health for the well-being of the common people.

Was Rev. Zhiguang the one who was involved in the slaughter of Xiao Feng's parents/clansmen? If so, I'm not sure that he should qualify. The ideal candidate should have a SPOTLESS reputation. Atonement and reformation are not acceptable!

[PJ]

Was Rev. Zhiguang the one who was involved in the slaughter of Xiao Feng's parents/clansmen? If so, I'm not sure that he should qualify. The ideal candidate should have a SPOTLESS reputation. Atonement and reformation are not acceptable!

Yeah, he was there. But since they were tricked into being there, I'm not sure if it should count against them. If they were not tricked (meaning Xiao Yuanshan was really coming to attack), then what they did would be regarded as heroic instead of wrong. Even Xiao Feng and Xiao Yuanshan took the blame off Xuanci when they found out the real culprit. Besides, it was the reckless Fang Daxiong who started the assault against Xiao Yuanshan, when the confrontation could have been preventable.

In terms of righteousness, should spotlessness really be the #1 most important factor? If so, someone that only appeared for 2 minutes and whom we only know 2 things about could be considered greater than Guo Jing, whom we have seen his whole life and who only did a few things wrong and whose good deeds are hard to match.

[bliss]

Yeah, he was there. But it should be noted that they were tricked into doing so; if they were not tricked (meaning Xiao Yuanshan was really coming to attack), then what they did would be regarded as heroic instead of wrong.

In terms of righteousness, should spotlessness really be the #1 most important factor? If so, someone that only appeared for 2 minutes and whom we only know 2 things about could be considered greater than Guo Jing, whom we have seen his whole life and who only did a few things wrong and whose good deeds are hard to match.

I'm still not that sold on Zhiguang. Didn't he only become so self-sacrificing after learning about the atrocity he had unknowingly committed? He also hid Xuanci's identity as the Big Headed Big Brother, which was not that righteous since Xiao Feng had a right to know who wronged his family.

Well, for an ELOC to be considered, he or she would need a grand resume of deeds in order to qualify as a hero as well. Let's say the ideal candidate would have accomplished great deeds in addition to having as little "spots" as possible.

[tape]

Spotlessness shouldn't be all the matters, but it surely should be a factor in consideration a la Hong Qigong messing up in small details.

How about we also rank the people with regards to how much we know about them. If we start with Impartial Judge, then we have to come up with someone who is >= to him in righteousness, but we have more details on him before we replace him.

Someone like Yu Lianzhou is known to have spent months at a time just wandering around doing righteous deeds, exhibits the spirit of the xia by placing his brothers and innocents above his own life, and has an impeccable record of no known evil deeds. He judged Yin Susu to be cruel/heretical and disliked her due to her reputation, but her personality and actions led him to realize she was a fine and changed person, showing that he is open minded even if a bit rigid at first.

He hasn't done anything grand like protecting his country in the same vein as Guo Jing/Qiao Feng, but then again neither has Li Xunhuan.

[odbayarb2000]

In my opinion GJ could rival Li Xunhuan. Until witnessing Hong Qigong's heroic action against Qiu Qianren, GJ wasn't matured enough in terms mentality and ideology. Hong Qigong's example had strong impact on him, from then on, we constantly saw unyielding chivalrous HERO. But Li Xunhuan had already matured in the start of his novel. We hardly know about his younger years. Though GJ is blamed for aiding Mongolians to exploit other countries, we hardly know what kind of encounters and what kind decisions made Li Xunhuan's to be the matured righteous self. He could have done more mistakes than GJ in his early days.

[bliss]

Should protecting one's country be considered a righteous act? When viewed in accordance with normal Confucian morals, it definitely is. But at the same time, protecting one's country is akin to slaughtering another country's soldiers.

While a lot of Gu Long's heroes never performed patriotic acts, the righteousness that they preached was to oneself, and to heaven and earth. That righteousness can be seen as more objective as patriotism which is usually simply based on the whims of the ruler of one's country. We can see how Guo Jing pondered this exact point as he questioned his loyalty to the Mongols and eventually switched sides to the Song.

[bliss]

Spotlessness shouldn't be all the matters, but it surely should be a factor in consideration a la Hong Qigong messing up in small details.

How about we also rank the people with regards to how much we know about them. If we start with Impartial Judge, then we have to come up with someone who is >= to him in righteousness, but we have more details on him before we replace him.

Someone like Yu Lianzhou is known to have spent months at a time just wandering around doing righteous deeds, exhibits the spirit of the xia by placing his brothers and innocents above his own life, and has an impeccable record of no known evil deeds. He judged Yin Susu to be cruel/heretical and disliked her due to her reputation, but her personality and actions led him to realize she was a fine and changed person, showing that he is open minded even if a bit rigid at first.

He hasn't done anything grand like protecting his country in the same vein as Guo Jing/Qiao Feng, but then again neither has Li Xunhuan.

This sounds like a good idea. I think we should use Li Xunhuan as a starting point though since he is Gu Long's archetype of the ultimate righteous hero. PJ, do you want to present your arguments for placing Shan Zheng above him?

I think we should use spotlessness as sort of a filter since without it, we'd have WAY too many qualifying heroes (almost all the main characters probably). Spotlessness is a convenient argument to place one hero above another in terms of righteousness.

[PJ]

How about listing all of the righteous deeds performed by Li Xunhuan first, since we're starting with him.

p.s. Yu Lianzhou is indeed an excellent contender.

[bliss]

To be honest, Old Li didn't really have THAT many righteous deeds under his belt. Let's see ...

1. Gave up his wife to save a friend
2. Exposed the evil Shaolin monk's plot
3. Killed Shangguan Jinhong

Although it was retconned in during later novels that his fame grew immensely from deeds he performed after the events in the novel as well.

Sometimes I almost think that Gu Long's whole Invincible Herosim shpiel was his "breaking the fourth wall" justification for why the good guys always win.

[kidd]

Hua Man Lou is a kind-hearted peace loving guy. But, I don't think he's righteous in the traditional sense (punishing evil, defending the good).

Here's a conversation between him and LXF regarding XMCX's killing ritual.

But Lu XiaoFeng couldn't wait any longer: "I don't want to kill the atmosphere, but once it turns dark, XiMen ChuiXue would not meet any guests."
"Not even you?"
"Not even the King of Heavens himself."
"What if he's not there?"
"He has to be there. He only leaves 4 times a year at the most, and that's only when he's off to kill someone."
"So he only kills 4 people a year at the most?"
"And they all deserve to be killed."
"Who deserves to be killed? Who decides they deserve to be killed?"

So, he's not righteous. He doesn't think anyone deserve to be killed or anyone has the right to judge who deserve to be killed. He's kind hearted and cherish life.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I'm not sure if what Li Xunhuan did to poor, undeserving Lin Shiyin qualifies as 'righteous'. He basically screwed over the woman who who loved him for the sake of his friend.

[kidd]

I'm not sure if what Li Xunhuan did to poor, undeserving Lin Shiyin qualifies as 'righteous'. He basically screwed over the woman who who loved him for the sake of his friend.

That's certainly not very righteous.

[kidd]

If one has righteous intention but use underhanded ways to achieve the greater goal, can he/she still he considered as righteous?

Zhuge Zheng Wo of the '4 Constables' series and the 'Talking of Hero, Who is Hero' series has a great sense of right and wrong, but, he's also the 'gives his girl to his friend' kind.

[PJ]

To be honest, Old Li didn't really have THAT many righteous deeds under his belt. Let's see ...

1. Gave up his wife to save a friend
2. Exposed the evil Shaolin monk's plot
3. Killed Shangguan Jinhong

Although it was retconned in during later novels that his fame grew immensely from deeds he performed after the events in the novel as well.

Sometimes I almost think that Gu Long's whole Invincible Herosim shpiel was his "breaking the fourth wall" justification for why the good guys always win.

If we stick with what we know from his novel, and there are only 2 or 3 miniscule rightteous things he did, then there must be at least 50 characters from Jin Yong universe who can trump Li in righteousness.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Then again, to be fair, Gulong was never about feats, but always about emotions/feelings.

[KChill]

I would also vote for GJ, but I didn't like the way he treated YG and XLN at the Beggar's Clan/Heroes summit. A little holier than thou in that one instance. My vote would definitely go to LXH.

[bliss]

If we stick with what we know from his novel, and there are only 2 or 3 miniscule rightteous things he did, then there must be at least 50 characters from Jin Yong universe who can trump Li in righteousness.

That's why I wanted to go with disqualifying arguments, not qualifying arguments. I'm pretty sure he had a lot more that weren't detailed in the novel, since he came to fame about 10+ years before the novel even started. I wanted to go by the assumption that all major heroes had relatively qualifying resumes, and then go about disqualifying candidates by listing out various non-righteous deeds.