The Sai Mun Chui Sheut Glorification Thread

[Ken Cheng]

My avatar...

Uh, not those big blue alien people from James Cameron's movie.

Anyway, you might wonder, "Does Sai Mun Chui Sheut really need a Glorification Thread? Isn't he already like the epitome of cool in LUK SIU FUNG?"

Well, yes and no. Certainly, at face value, he's the epitome of cool in LUK SIU FUNG, but people always point out these things:


1). In each of his big takedowns (Dook Goo 1 Hok, Yip Goo Sing), there were extenuating circumstances that threw the fights in SMCS's favor.

2). He wasn't the most powerful character in the LUK SIU FUNG stories.

3). Despite the fact that Luk Siu Fung was deathly afraid of him and had explicitly said that he could not hope to defeat SMCS, many people argue that Luk Siu Fung actually had better martial arts than SMCS and was only "afraid" because he (Luk) didn't want to have to kill his friend.

4). He always gets unfavorably compared to other Gu Long swordsmen who could do stuff like stop time and turn the universe upside down while SMCS just...er, kills people with a sword.

5). People refuse to compare him to the top Jin Yong swordsmen and when they do, they always make sure SMCS loses.

ENOUGH! Let us glorify Simon the Snow-Blower in this thread!

[mawguy]

my reason for liking SMCS more than LSF is the fact that he is quirky and full of contradictions. he's a clean freak, yet he is a self-appointed assassin. he can be a cold, unfeeling bastard, yet he would risk his life for his friends. he's stubborn and can't be bought, unless you happen to have an ugly moustache, and, if you were willing to shave it, then he'd follow you anywhere, tail wagging.

it's these little quirks that prevent him from being a simple, stick-in-the-mud "cool" guy. like YGS.

[Ghaleon]

If you're just talking about personality, SMCS is by far the coolest swordsmen in wuxia. It's not even close. He's as icy cold as the antarctica. If i was a wuxia girl, i'd be all over him lol.

He wasn't the most powerful character in the LUK SIU FUNG stories.

He was definitely top tier. And didn't by the end of the series his swordsmanship improved a great deal making him the #1 sword god?

[Ken Cheng]

He was definitely top tier. And didn't by the end of the series his swordsmanship improved a great deal making him the #1 sword god?

Yeah, but supposedly, by the last few novels, there were villains such as Gung 9 who supposedly could own LSF and SMCS more easily than LSF and SMCS could own a little child with no martial arts skills.

I'm not sure I believe it.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah, but supposedly, by the last few novels, there were villains such as Gung 9 who supposedly could own LSF and SMCS more easily than LSF and SMCS could own a little child with no martial arts skills.

I'm not sure I believe it.

Oh, i see. Well to me SMCS is the coolest because of his deadly sword skills and his icy cold personality. Who cares if he's not like the de facto #1?? At least he's like within the 0.0000000000001% of the wulin population. His sword skills are already legendary so its his personality and overall style that puts him over the top.

[Ken Cheng]

Oh, i see. Well to me SMCS is the coolest because of his deadly sword skills and his icy cold personality. Who cares if he's not like the de facto #1?? At least he's like within the 0.0000000000001% of the wulin population His sword skills are already legendary so its his personality and overall STYLE that puts him over the top.

Indeed.

I get this feeling that Dook Goo Kau Bai had *no* style at all: just look at all his followers - slobs to a man!

[Ghaleon]

Indeed.

I get this feeling that Dook Goo Kau Bai had *no* style at all: just look at all his followers - slobs to a man!

I don't think its fair to compare DKKB to SMCS because DKKB was never actually implemented within the novel. SMCS is actually a living breathing swordsmen in LSF. DKKB is more of an idea than a personality.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't think its fair to compare DKKB to SMCS because DKKB was never actually implemented within the novel. SMCS is actually a living breathing swordsmen in LSF. DKKB is more of an idea than a personality.

What's really ridiculous is that no one has ever seen Dook Goo Kau Bai in action, but everybody is ready to award him the "invincible" title hands down.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut also never lost a duel in LUK SIU FUNG, but because his duels were actually depicted, some people insist that he's overrated.

This warrants a rare use of the smilie I hate most:

[PJ]

What's really ridiculous is that no one has ever seen Dook Goo Kau Bai in action, but everybody is ready to award him the "invincible" title hands down.

Why do you have to see someone in action in order to believe their invincibility? No one saw Damo, Murong Longcheng, Teacher of 3 Xiaoyao Pai Elders, Inventor of Ode to Gallantry Art, Creator of 6MSJ, in action either. But their legacies more or less confirm their invincibility. Same with Dugu Qiubai.

[Ken Cheng]

Why do you have to see someone in action in order to believe their invincibility? No one saw Damo, Murong Longcheng, Teacher of 3 Xiaoyao Pai Elders, Inventor of Ode to Gallantry Art, Creator of 6MSJ, in action either. But their legacies more or less confirm their invincibility. Same with Dugu Qiubai.

Because there's such a thing as "context": Yau Chui Gei would have been "invincible" too if he lived in the wulin of BOOK & SWORD: GRATITUDE & REVENGE.

[Ghaleon]

What's really ridiculous is that no one has ever seen Dook Goo Kau Bai in action, but everybody is ready to award him the "invincible" title hands down.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut also never lost a duel in LUK SIU FUNG, but because his duels were actually depicted, some people insist that he's overrated.

This warrants a rare use of the smilie I hate most:

Well DKKB is more of an idea or maybe even an ideal. He has no personality so he's viewed as god-like. SMCS is actually a living breathing human being. So we're essentially comparing a human being to a statue.

[tape]

Because there's such a thing as "context": Yau Chui Gei would have been "invincible" too if he lived in the wulin of BOOK & SWORD: GRATITUDE & REVENGE.

Yeah but Dugu didnt. Are you being difficult on purpose ?

Unless you believe that pretty much from every period starting from the pre-DGSD era until the Ming dynasty in HSDS there were at least Great level fighters in every generation, but magically during the Dugu period there wasn't a single fighter near Great status, and then suddenly they spring up again.

Or that the only two known martial arts he created propelled losers into near the best of their time period in less than a year doesn't speak about his prowess.

And your point about Ximen is ridiculous. It's not because his duels were depicted that he isn't given credit; it's because they were depicted and we know he struggled even against opponents with extentuating circumstances. How does this make him a sword god?

[Ghaleon]

And your point about Ximen is ridiculous. It's not because his duels were depicted that he isn't given credit; it's because they were depicted and we know he struggled even against opponents with extentuating circumstances. How does this make him a sword god?

He did attain the rank of a sword god, didn't he? It's his personality and his struggles that make him the most relatable sword god. if SMCS was owning every enemy he encountered, there would be no conflict to tell. Good stories are based on conflicts. At least we get to see SMCS grow as a swordsman as he encountered extremely high level characters throughout the series.

[tape]

He did attain the rank of a sword god, didn't he? It's his personality and his struggles that make him the most relatable sword god. if SMCS was owning every enemy he encountered, there would be no conflict to tell. Good stories are based on conflicts. At least we get to see SMCS grow as a swordsman as he encountered extremely high level characters throughout the series.

That's fine for characterization, but Ken's point with that statement wasn't that. He was saying it was unfair Dugu gets recognition without having any onscreen fights, while Ximen has plenty of winning ones and gets less. Ximen performed at a lower level, so he doesn't deserve as much recognition.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah but Dugu didnt. Are you being difficult on purpose

No, but you might be: bringing this into a SMCS Glorification Thread.

Unless you believe that pretty much from every period starting from the pre-DGSD era until the Ming dynasty in HSDS there were at least Great level fighters in every generation, but magically during the Dugu period there wasn't a single fighter near Great status, and then suddenly they spring up again.

It's been known to happen. Elites and Greats are usually known at least one generation after their passing...sometimes even two or three. People in LOCH's era still knew about Kiu Fung and Wong Seung. People in HSDS still knew about North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and others. People in DOMD still knew about Ling Wu Chung.

So what happened to all these "mighty warriors" that Dook Goo Kau Bai defeated? Just who were they? Just how good were they?

Or that the only two known martial arts he created propelled losers into near the best of their time period in less than a year doesn't speak about his prowess.

Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung were already gifted fighters even before their encounters with Dook Goo Kau Bai's artifacts, and they probably would have become Greats *anyway*. Besides, neither of them so much *learned* anything from Dook Goo Kau Bai as they did use his artifacts to figure out stuff on their own. That gives us very little direct evidence of just how "invincible" Dook Goo Kau Bai was because much of Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung's success was more attributable to their own innate talents (to say nothing of the fusion of what they got from their Dook Goo encounters with the other things they picked up in earlier encounters with other Greats) than any direct input from Dook Goo Kau Bai, who was dead and didn't leave much behind for them beyond inspiration (although we shouldn't discount the importance of inspiration, I'll grant that much).

And your point about Ximen is ridiculous. It's not because his duels were depicted that he isn't given credit; it's because they were depicted and we know he struggled even against opponents with extentuating circumstances. How does this make him a sword god?

Do we know that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't have "extenuating circumstances" in his duels? I supposed we don't, but we don't even know what the caliber of his opponents were. Were they ROCH-era Gwok Jing-level fighters, or were they Mui Chiu Fung level fighters? My guess is as good as yours.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut's opponents, however, we know, and all the guys who gave him a good challenge were all heavy hitters. When he did finally beat them, it WAS a big deal because we knew that those guys weren't Larry, Moe, and Manny...they were some of the best that the wulin of his time had to offer.

[tape]

No, but you might be: bringing this into a SMCS Glorification Thread.



It's been known to happen. Elites and Greats are usually known at least one generation after their passing...sometimes even two or three. People in LOCH's era still knew about Kiu Fung and Wong Seung. People in HSDS still knew about North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and others. People in DOMD still knew about Ling Wu Chung.

So what happened to all these "mighty warriors" that Dook Goo Kau Bai defeated? Just who were they? Just how good were they?



Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung were already gifted fighters even before their encounters with Dook Goo Kau Bai's artifacts, and they probably would have become Greats *anyway*. Besides, neither of them so much *learned* anything from Dook Goo Kau Bai as they did use his artifacts to figure out stuff on their own. That gives us very direct evidence of just how "invincible" Dook Goo Kau Bai was because much of Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung's success was more attributable to their own innate talents (to say nothing of the fusion of what they got from their Dook Goo encounters with the other things they picked up in earlier encounters with other Greats) than any direct input from Dook Goo Kau Bai, who was dead and didn't leave much behind for them beyond inspiration (although we shouldn't discount the importance of inspiration, I'll grant that much).



Do we know that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't have "extenuating circumstances" in his duels? I supposed we don't, but we don't even know what the caliber of his opponents were. Were they ROCH-era Gwok Jing-level fighters, or were they Mui Chiu Fung level fighters? My guess is as good as yours.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut's opponents, however, we know, and all the guys who gave him a good challenge were all heavy hitters. When he did finally beat them, it WAS a big deal because we knew that those guys weren't Larry, Moe, and Manny...they were some of the best that the wulin of his time had to offer.

How the heck do you use multiple quotes? I never figured that out.

1. People in DOMD knew about Dugu too. So he's a pretty heavy hitter too then if we go by people remembering them LONG after they died. Also, the other people had reason to be mentioned. Xiao Feng was mentioned by Beggar's Clan members along with Hong Qi; WS was mentioned when talking about the 9 Yin; Guo Jing was mentioned as a patriot when talking about Guo Xiang and when Zhang Sanfeng compared his and Wuji's inner strength because he had personally seen them before. Dugu was mentioned by Feng Qingyang hundreds of years later because there was reason for him to be mentioned: he was talking about Dugu 9 Swords. People don't just go around talking about people from the without reason. Huang Yaoshi wouldn't randomly be like hey guys remember that awesome guy Dugu while exchanging pleasantries with fellow Greats.

2. Yang Guo and Linghu Chong were gifted sure, but lets remember that Huang Yaoshi said he'd be extremely happy if Yang Guo could kill Li Mochou with his two best techniques Mighty Snap and Jade Flute Swordplay within 3 years. So with Huang Yaoshi's direct teaching, he'd reach Li Mochou within 3 years, and what -- Great level in 30years ? Seems Dugu trumps him in that department with a one month boost to Greatness. And about HIS, Yang Guo didn't merge or fuse anythng. He realized it was better than all the rest of his martial arts and abandoned them all for it. It was Sad Palms where he merged and created his own martial arts -- mainly for entertainment because he was stronger with HIS imho.

3. About Linghu Chong, I think I remember you didn't read SPW, so I'll just remind you that he didn't use any of Dugu's artifacts. He got direct teaching from Feng Qingyang, whom presumably got indirect teaching from Dugu somehow through manual or something (or else why would he give Dugu credit..?) in order to learn Dugu 9 Swords. There was an entire system and codex of thousands of characters long. He didn't figure anything out himself; he might have applied it better than many but it was due to Dugu's great skills. Linghu Chong is smart, but he is still an extremely weak wulin member relatively and he's been studying for 10+ years. His inherent talent didn't get him anywhere without supreme techniques created by yours truly.

4. My point wasn't that Ximen wasn't as powerful as Dugu or that he isn't a great fighter. It's just that relating him with Dugu is pretty illogical. Dugu has an awe inspiring legend because he is mysterious and we know he is capable. Ximen has been shown to be able to lose, and he is not even the best of his generation. It's not hard to understand why one would invoke more wonder and admiration.

[Ken Cheng]

How the heck do you use multiple quotes? I never figured that out.

There are two ways.

First, the slow way: manually paste the text to be quoted between these: [ quote ] [ /quote ]. IMPORTANT: don't put an extra space between the brackets and the first and last letters like I did. I only did that so that those two things would show up.

But that's the slow way, for people who have too much time on their hands. For most people, the faster way is to highlight the text you'd like to quote, and then hit that button (not literally; click the mouse) that looks like a comic book word balloon.

If that doesn't work, call me in the morning.

[tape]

First, the slow way: manually paste the text to be quoted between these: [ quote ] [ /quote ]. IMPORTANT: don't put an extra space between the brackets and the first and last letters like I did. I only did that so that those two things would show up.

Ahh

But that's the slow way, for people who have too much time on their hands. For most people, the faster way is to highlight the text you'd like to quote, and then hit that button (not literally; click the mouse) that looks like a comic book word balloon.

ha!

If that doesn't work, call me in the morning.

Thanks a bunch.

[Ghaleon]

That gives us very little direct evidence of just how "invincible" Dook Goo Kau Bai was because much of Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung's success was more attributable to their own innate talents (to say nothing of the fusion of what they got from their Dook Goo encounters with the other things they picked up in earlier encounters with other Greats) than any direct input from Dook Goo Kau Bai, who was dead and didn't leave much behind for them beyond inspiration (although we shouldn't discount the importance of inspiration, I'll grant that much).

Well to be fair, DK9G, which i assume is attributed to DKKB, is a super advanced techniques manual. But i agree that YG and LWC's succes were more due to their own innate talents rather than just DKKB. It's one thing to learn from a book, but its another to actually apply those principles in real life. LWC was a gifted and smart man.

Sai Mun Chui Sheut's opponents, however, we know, and all the guys who gave him a good challenge were all heavy hitters. When he did finally beat them, it WAS a big deal because we knew that those guys weren't Larry, Moe, and Manny...they were some of the best that the wulin of his time had to offer.

Maybe DKKB is Rod Laver (a distant forgotten memory) and SMCS is Roger Federer (the living present who is the #1 player but struggles against other elites).

[Ken Cheng]

Ahh



ha!




Thanks a bunch.

Well, that was partially successful. Keep practicing. You ought to get it after one or two more tries.