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Thread: The Beggar's Union *did* likely lose HL18P and DBST after HSDS!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The Beggar's Union *did* likely lose HL18P and DBST after HSDS!

    Beggar's Union Chief Shih For Lung in HSDS never learned more than fifteen of the Hong Lung 18 Palms, and in any case, he was murdered by Sing Kwun.

    The Beggar's Union always had the provision of a Skills Transmission/Rewards Elder, whose responsibilities included making sure that the Dog Beating Stick Technique and the Hong Lung 18 Palms would survive even if the Union Chief were killed or went missing.

    During the "Lion-Taming Convention" at Shaolin, however, the Beggar's Union's Skills Transmission Elder was murdered by Sing Kwun's men.

    Uh-oh.

    With both the Union Chief and the Skills Transmission Elder dead, that likely means that both the Dog Beating Stick Technique and the Hong Lung 18 Palms skills were forever lost.

    It sure helps explain why the Beggar's Union pretty much disappears from Jin Yong's wulin after HSDS.

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    it was probably lost before that... if the leader knew hl18p he wouldnt had been murdered that badly.

    btw since huang rong didnt know hl18p, wouldnt the skill be lost there?
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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    GJ knew XL18Z so he passed it on to Lu Youjiao and Yelu Qi. It wasn't lost during ROCH time. XL18Z is not subjet to "leader only" rule, only Dog Beating Stick is like that.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    shi hualong learnt all 18 HL18Z. he only mastered 15 fully. then he injured his arms and had to go for treatment. he had recovered his arms to about 90% and was one of the top experts in wulin at the time he died. after he died, there would be no one in begger clan who knew dog beating skill through lady yang could have transmitted the skill to the next chief. one of the begger elders knew HL18Z and had mastered about 12 of them. he was on the same level as a xuan ming elder. it's likely the skills survived as HL18Z can be written down, only DBS had to be transmitted orally.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword View Post
    one of the begger elders knew HL18Z and had mastered about 12 of them. he was on the same level as a xuan ming elder.
    If I remember right, it has been mentioned numerous times that this information is either false or obsolete (e.g. erased after 1st edition of HSDS).
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    With Chief Shih and the Skills Transmission Elder both dead by the end of HSDS, who could have transmitted either/both Hong Lung 18 Palms or/and Dog Beating Stick Technique then? This was probably the end of the road for both skills.

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    Senior Member smurf120's Avatar
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    I thought Yellow Robed Lady knew Dog Beating Sticks via YG (when HR taught him) and Jie Sun taught ZWJ HL18 palms so either Jie Sun or ZWJ "could" teach some of it.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smurf120 View Post
    I thought Yellow Robed Lady knew Dog Beating Sticks via YG (when HR taught him) and Jie Sun taught ZWJ HL18 palms so either Jie Sun or ZWJ "could" teach some of it.
    Lady Yeung might have learned the Dog Beating Stick Technique (so much for "only Beggar's Union Chiefs can learn this skill," though).

    Tse Tsun only knew the Hong Lung 18 Palms in the first edition of HSDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lady Yeung might have learned the Dog Beating Stick Technique (so much for "only Beggar's Union Chiefs can learn this skill," though).

    Tse Tsun only knew the Hong Lung 18 Palms in the first edition of HSDS.
    Huey Zhok learnt both in TLBB (at least in the 3rd edition), so a precedent has been set.

    Cheung Mou Gei 'knew' 3 stances via Tse Tsun; Elder Chou knew 12, and Mou Lit knew all of them. Only the Beggar knew how to actually use them in combat though. Yu Tien also contained a manual (i.e all 18). This is in the first edition only.

    I was under the impression that Si Foa Long only knew 12. Maybe that was changed too; must check. Elder Chou was never actually responsible for Da Gau and Hong Long; the role of Chuen Gong was to oversee the general training of the Beggar Sect disciples and its associated martial arts. The leader's techniques did not pass to others (esp. Da Gau) unless the leader saw fit to do so.

    Perhaps more noteworthy was the omission of Hong 7 Gong's gourd as one of the 'symbols' of the Beggar sect. In the original and second editions, they held equal significance in the eyes of the sect. Theoretically, if someone could have dug out the gourd from Wa San and showed it to the sect, s/he would have just as strong a claim as someone with the stick. Who knows... there might have been a Jeung Wu Jeung Lou then instead of Jeung But Jeung Lou.
    Last edited by Foolworm; 03-03-10 at 07:54 PM.

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    His gourd...? I had no idea about that one.

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    Did anybody ever wonder why the begger chief in HSDS have problems mastering the XL18Z? GJ an 18 year old dumb kid with barely 2 years of internal energy trainning could master it just find. I wander why?

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    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    My take is that SHL had a buggy version. They didnt have a written copy, and somewhere along the line, a few stances where transmitted wrong.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lady Yeung might have learned the Dog Beating Stick Technique (so much for "only Beggar's Union Chiefs can learn this skill," though).
    It is pretty possible even YG didnt master the DBST completely. In the novel it was indicated that SHL and his family went often to Mount Zhoungnan to visit Lady Yang to ask for martial arts advise.

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    Senior Member Shi-Potian's Avatar
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    That's just a gross, and blatant disregard of the fact noone in RoCH ever said his dbs technique was inferior or sub-par. So either shi wasn't goo enough or it was lady Yang who didn't really master it.

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