Last edited by Linghu; 03-08-10 at 02:11 PM.
"The bitterest enemy of you is carnal desires of yourself."
"The best fight is fight against carnal desires of oneself."
- The Successor of the Prophet of Islam, Imam Ali peace be upon him
I recall in LOCH 02, when the 7 Freaks spoke to Qiu Chuji. They said something like "Against one, the seven of us will fight. Against a thousand, it'll still be the seven of us" (the fact that they had no one else to call upon when outnumbered made that second half redundant, but it showed at least that they were not fighting only when they had the numbers advantage). Wouldn't that ameliorate the formation vs individual situation? The Du monks fought Wuji 3 on 1, but didn't hesitate to take on Wuji, Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng together. The Quanzhen Seven fought Mei Chaofeng 7 on 1, and later on Huang Yaoshi, but had there been more than 7 opponents they'd probably still have fought.
The Wudang Seven were willing to challenge the Shaolin Three before ZCS tragically died. It think it's not so much the number of people, but the art being used. When the Quanzhen seven fight Huang Yaoshi, it's Seven North Polar Stars formation versus Luoying Shenjian Zhang, for example. The Seven freaks probably had their own formation too (they had one when fighting in the Jin palace, so it's possible that they already had one when 5th brother was still around). It's an art which cannot be performed with insufficient parties, so it has to be so. It's not like the 6 Ben monks in Tianlongzi, when Jiumozhi invaded and each monk used a finger. 6MSJ was never meant as a formation, and JMZ exploited the weaknesses of having 6 people do what one person should do by himself. If a formation requires x number of people, and you go to fight them, you'd expect to fight that formation, and the number of people in it is merely a component.
Not all fights are about personal honour. There are bigger & more important things to fight for. Why is it so hard to understand?
"Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."
"I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."
Not all fights were created equal, folks.
Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
That Merciless Blade - Legend of the Arctic Wolf.
From memory I don't think there was a single instance where XLN & YG used their formation to gain supremacy over one person for fame/power. The only instance where it was remotely true was when XLN was fighting GWM at the heroes meet and it was he that claimed that if he could not beat her in 10 stances he would give her the title but he kept on attacking.
In terms of seniority it would not be frowned upon for XLN and her student to take GWM on together anyway. As an arrogant gatecrasher to a central plains heroes meet he was already being treated with the utmost honour despite his trash talking, like Yang Guo said, if all of wulin attacked him he would have to run or eventually die. He was not able to become leader of the central plains through virtue or righteousness - he made out plenty clear to everyone he was a jerk - so basically if he took the title it had to be by force.
If he cannot even beat a young girl and her welp of a boyfriend he has no business claiming that title. They may not have been able to beat him there and then but shortly after he was overcome by their realised formation and a wulin leader who rules soley by force should be prepared to have to face of constant challenges - it comes with the territory. In any case even if he wanted to face one person only then he would need to beat Guo Jing. He could have arranged a fair fight with him later on but instead he resorted to abducting his daughter and pregnant wife.
All the other uses of the formation was when they were trying to save ppl, beat off bullies or fighting for their lives.
They were bound by duty to guard Xie Xun and after hearing ZWJ out they were sympathetic and they wrote the Abbot a letter to explain the situation to him. At the same time they invited ZWJ to get as many experts as possible to fight them and even gave him tips on who not to field. They were being genuine and not arrogant.
In the end even if ZWJ was not able to overcome them with ZZR (which was essentially just ZWJ vs the 3 monks) i think wulin consensus would be that while the formation was superior and won they cannot claim total victory due to their seniority and outnumbering of their opponents.
TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time
I don't recall them ever saying anything explicitly about always engaging all opponents as a team regardless of the number of opponents (though that is what they did anyway).
I think the evidence tends to point to the monks as being overly arrogant and prideful, even to the detriment of their sworn duty. When they were attacked by the Qinghai sect and others while talking to ZWJ, they regretted biting off more than they could chew (過於托大) and not calling out for help while still able to. If ZWJ had not helped them out, they would have died (and thus failed in their duty) due to their pride in their own abilities.
When the Ming cult challenged them formally, the attitude of the monks was clearly one of immense arrogance, looking down not only on the abilities of the Ming cult (except for ZWJ, implicitly acknowledging his superiority even to them) but that of all of Wulin. It was this belief that there were no worthy opponents comparable to ZWJ in existance that led to the offer of allowing multiple experts against them. They changed their tune by the end of that fight when it became evident that a fight to the end would result in the deaths of all but the strongest on either side. Jinyong explicitly wrote of them toning down their prior arrogance (三位少林高僧已收起先前的狂傲之心).
The monks most certainly did not give tips on who shouldn't fight! After the monk Du-e tested Wei Yixiao's inner strength, he still believed that WYX would still be one of the ones fighting against him, and had a hard time believing that there was anyone superior to WYX in the Ming cult (except for ZWJ, of course). Are you going by HSDS 2000 by any chance, since that is the only time I remember something like that happening?