Using formation/group attacks in wulin - is it honorable?

[Banh Mi]

This is not the right thread to discuss this matter and it would be good if Ken Cheng move these discussions to another thread.

Anyway, firstly I myself was not sure what I said was right so I said "I feel".

Secondly since some of the readers maybe believe in Taoism, I don't want to hurt their feelings & maybe JY himself also don't want this.

Thirdly I myself said that some of the monks in JY canon don't follow Buddhism principles, but they were individual monks; I don't remember any Buddhism sect that all or most of its members were not righteous & merciful people.

Fourthly, I was talking about mercifulness & righteousness, for example not killing, not cheating, not betraying, not ganging up against a single junior tired girl, etc. I was not talking about love affairs, although love affairs is prohibited in Buddhism. IMO this principle is against nature of human being & Buddhists are right to don't believe by nature in this principle & violate it. I take off my hat for this kind of monks & nuns.

I didn't mean it as an attack on you. I made that post light heartedly, since it was a pretty interesting topic.

[Linghu]

SPW is a little out of my area of interest, but there are clearly also Buddhist schools whose records are pretty dodgy.

Tibetan Dalai Buddhism: in Jin Yong's universe, what did they ever put out besides villainous monks (i.e. Kau Mor Tze of DGSD, Ling Tze Seung Yan of LOCH, Golden Wheel Monk of ROCH, and many of the Yuan Dynasty's warriors in HSDS)? It got so out of hand that even Jin Yong started to feel a bit guilty about it and recast the Golden Wheel Monk as an ethnic Mongolian in the third edition of ROCH.

Diamond Men: A Western Shaolin offshoot, whose members were responsible for crippling two Mo Dong Sect Heroes during HSDS

Ngor Mei Sect in HSDS under Mit Jeut See Tai and Chow Chi Yerk: 'Nuff said.

Even mighty Shaolin itself seemingly can't get through a Jin Yong novel without some embarrassing incident involving the ethics of its top-echelon members (DGSD, HSDS).

It seams U R right. I don't know what to say in your response. Maybe YJ doesn't regard western Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism (Lamaism) as respectful as Maha-yana Buddhism & Theraveda Buddhism. Even nowadays, Leaders & Political men of China are irritated that Lamaism leaders have closed relationships with Zionists & U.S.A. Government & act against China.

[Ian Liew]

I recall in LOCH 02, when the 7 Freaks spoke to Qiu Chuji. They said something like "Against one, the seven of us will fight. Against a thousand, it'll still be the seven of us" (the fact that they had no one else to call upon when outnumbered made that second half redundant, but it showed at least that they were not fighting only when they had the numbers advantage). Wouldn't that ameliorate the formation vs individual situation? The Du monks fought Wuji 3 on 1, but didn't hesitate to take on Wuji, Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng together. The Quanzhen Seven fought Mei Chaofeng 7 on 1, and later on Huang Yaoshi, but had there been more than 7 opponents they'd probably still have fought.

The Wudang Seven were willing to challenge the Shaolin Three before ZCS tragically died. It think it's not so much the number of people, but the art being used. When the Quanzhen seven fight Huang Yaoshi, it's Seven North Polar Stars formation versus Luoying Shenjian Zhang, for example. The Seven freaks probably had their own formation too (they had one when fighting in the Jin palace, so it's possible that they already had one when 5th brother was still around). It's an art which cannot be performed with insufficient parties, so it has to be so. It's not like the 6 Ben monks in Tianlongzi, when Jiumozhi invaded and each monk used a finger. 6MSJ was never meant as a formation, and JMZ exploited the weaknesses of having 6 people do what one person should do by himself. If a formation requires x number of people, and you go to fight them, you'd expect to fight that formation, and the number of people in it is merely a component.

[Candide]

Not all fights are about personal honour. There are bigger & more important things to fight for. Why is it so hard to understand?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not all fights are about personal honour. There are bigger & more important things to fight for. Why is it so hard to understand?

I agree. Hell, even Greats level fighters group up together; Zhou Botong, Huang Yaoshi, and Yideng ganged up together against Jinlun Fawang. When the latter called them out on it and said that he wouldn't be forced to submit by any one of them individually, Zhou Botong immediately agreed, stating that there was no need to fight a one-on-one duel, as they weren't having a martial arts competition to determine the number one fighter in the world.

Not all fights were created equal, folks.

[AnhHung]

I It think it's not so much the number of people, but the art being used.

If a formation requires x number of people, and you go to fight them, you'd expect to fight that formation, and the number of people in it is merely a component.

Spot on. And if you win, you havent just beated x number of people, you have beaten the formation.

[Zhuge Liang]

From memory I don't think there was a single instance where XLN & YG used their formation to gain supremacy over one person for fame/power. The only instance where it was remotely true was when XLN was fighting GWM at the heroes meet and it was he that claimed that if he could not beat her in 10 stances he would give her the title but he kept on attacking.

In terms of seniority it would not be frowned upon for XLN and her student to take GWM on together anyway. As an arrogant gatecrasher to a central plains heroes meet he was already being treated with the utmost honour despite his trash talking, like Yang Guo said, if all of wulin attacked him he would have to run or eventually die. He was not able to become leader of the central plains through virtue or righteousness - he made out plenty clear to everyone he was a jerk - so basically if he took the title it had to be by force.

If he cannot even beat a young girl and her welp of a boyfriend he has no business claiming that title. They may not have been able to beat him there and then but shortly after he was overcome by their realised formation and a wulin leader who rules soley by force should be prepared to have to face of constant challenges - it comes with the territory. In any case even if he wanted to face one person only then he would need to beat Guo Jing. He could have arranged a fair fight with him later on but instead he resorted to abducting his daughter and pregnant wife.

All the other uses of the formation was when they were trying to save ppl, beat off bullies or fighting for their lives.

When Wuji challenged them to a one-on-one fight, the 3 elders said point-blank that they might not be able to beat him one-on-one, so they would gang up on him to make sure. Isn't that about as shameless as it gets?

I interpret that differently. They plainly admitted that one against one they were not able to beat him but that from the start no matter how many opponents they faced they would fight as a team. This was not a rule specially formulated to deal with ZWJ and had its advantages and advantages.

They were bound by duty to guard Xie Xun and after hearing ZWJ out they were sympathetic and they wrote the Abbot a letter to explain the situation to him. At the same time they invited ZWJ to get as many experts as possible to fight them and even gave him tips on who not to field. They were being genuine and not arrogant.

In the end even if ZWJ was not able to overcome them with ZZR (which was essentially just ZWJ vs the 3 monks) i think wulin consensus would be that while the formation was superior and won they cannot claim total victory due to their seniority and outnumbering of their opponents.

[Doc Kwok]

I interpret that differently. They plainly admitted that one against one they were not able to beat him but that from the start no matter how many opponents they faced they would fight as a team. This was not a rule specially formulated to deal with ZWJ and had its advantages and advantages.

I think you are giving them far more credit than they deserve. At the time the comment was made, they had pretty much stated outright that they had spent the last 30 years nursing a grudge against Yang Dingtian (which would be extreme for anyone, nevermind supposedly enlightened monks), and they intended to take it all out on ZWJ as YDT's successor, as well as for the supposed crimes of the Ming cult. It was more of a grudge match at that point.

I don't recall them ever saying anything explicitly about always engaging all opponents as a team regardless of the number of opponents (though that is what they did anyway).

They were bound by duty to guard Xie Xun and after hearing ZWJ out they were sympathetic and they wrote the Abbot a letter to explain the situation to him. At the same time they invited ZWJ to get as many experts as possible to fight them and even gave him tips on who not to field. They were being genuine and not arrogant.

This was after they tried to lay the smackdown on ZWJ, forcing him to explain while fighting.

I think the evidence tends to point to the monks as being overly arrogant and prideful, even to the detriment of their sworn duty. When they were attacked by the Qinghai sect and others while talking to ZWJ, they regretted biting off more than they could chew (過於托大) and not calling out for help while still able to. If ZWJ had not helped them out, they would have died (and thus failed in their duty) due to their pride in their own abilities.

When the Ming cult challenged them formally, the attitude of the monks was clearly one of immense arrogance, looking down not only on the abilities of the Ming cult (except for ZWJ, implicitly acknowledging his superiority even to them) but that of all of Wulin. It was this belief that there were no worthy opponents comparable to ZWJ in existance that led to the offer of allowing multiple experts against them. They changed their tune by the end of that fight when it became evident that a fight to the end would result in the deaths of all but the strongest on either side. Jinyong explicitly wrote of them toning down their prior arrogance (三位少林高僧已收起先前的狂傲之心).

The monks most certainly did not give tips on who shouldn't fight! After the monk Du-e tested Wei Yixiao's inner strength, he still believed that WYX would still be one of the ones fighting against him, and had a hard time believing that there was anyone superior to WYX in the Ming cult (except for ZWJ, of course). Are you going by HSDS 2000 by any chance, since that is the only time I remember something like that happening?

In the end even if ZWJ was not able to overcome them with ZZR (which was essentially just ZWJ vs the 3 monks) i think wulin consensus would be that while the formation was superior and won they cannot claim total victory due to their seniority and outnumbering of their opponents.

By the end, ZWJ had single-handedly destroyed their formation by knocking down the trees and forcing them to release their whips by throwing the Sacred Fire brands at them while they were dodging the collapsing trees. How could the formation have been said to be superior when it was broken?