21 fetuses, baby bodies found in E. China river,Jining county, Shandong Province

[Cesare]

China has a loooonnnggg way to go before I'd consider it a civilized society.

I wonder what would you say if I reacted like that to a report about police brutality against African Americans or something of that sort...
You belong to the nation that elected George W. as president. TWICE. So be just a tad more careful with your words...

[Dirt]

I wonder what would you say if I reacted like that to a report about police brutality against African Americans or something of that sort...
You belong to the nation that elected George W. as president. TWICE. So be just a tad more careful with your words...

Bush was termed out and we elected Barack Obama of the Democratic Party instead of John McCain of the same party as Bush.

Weren't we talking domestic policies here? What did George W Bush do to American citizens comparable to what the CPC does to PRC citizens?

When do the people of the PRC have the opportunity to elect someone who isn't part of the Communist Party? When do the people of the PRC get to elect anybody in high office? When do the people of the PRC get to speak freely without fear of disappearing in the night?

You live in the Czech Republic. How many people do you meet that wishes things were back to when the Communist Party there ruled?

[Cesare]

Oh, I know quite a few. My paternal grandparents among them. (I do not agree with them, just for the record.)
But there will always be some people who'd trade liberty and freedom for safety and convenience if they could...
It is in MY best interest that they don't have it their way, but that's simply opposing views clashing.

I'm not defending the way things are run in PRC. And my problem is more with the local authorities and officials than with the oldtimers in Beijing (though the oldtimers in Beijing sure are an essential part of the whole picture).

Look - you can think whatever you want about PRC and the communist regime (and in many respects, I'd probably agree with you), but it's not like what you think is in any way universally true or valid.
Your initial response to this topic was awfully arrogant on quite a few levels, so don't feel offended if there's a backlash. Westerners - and especially Americans - preaching about democracy are tiresome and they're doing democracy a huge disservice.
Your idea of civilized might not be other people's idea of civilized. To a quite a few Chinese our society probably looks decadent and unruly - and words like "individualism" and "liberal" have predominantly negative connotations within their paradigm.
And some people might actually feel tempted to point out that "civilization" is not such a huge deal anyway and that it creates more trouble than it solves... In some respects they'd be right...:-)

[Dirt]

decadent and unruly

Actually, I would use the words "open" and "fair".

And not all Chinese view "individualism" and "liberal" as being negative. 1.3 billion might. But there are more Chinese than that in this world.

[Cesare]

Actually, I would use the words "open" and "fair".

That's your way of putting it.
I myself wouldn't be so sure about "fair". There's no such thing as a fair society, they are all unfair in their own unique ways.

And not all Chinese view "individualism" and "liberal" as being negative. 1.3 billion might. But there are more Chinese than that in this world.

Sure not all of them see it that way. The Chinese are not a homogenous crowd. Not even those in PRC.
But many of them do (and not just Chinese - I guess some Americans or Czechs or Germans as well). And sometimes for valid reasons.
In any case - my point was that values are not universal. You seem to have decided not to get it. :-]

[Dirt]

That's your way of putting it.
I myself wouldn't be so sure about "fair". There's no such thing as a fair society, they are all unfair in their own unique ways.

I agree. However, in the USA, there is always recourse. Whether that's electing someone you agree with into office or running for office yourself or maybe even sueing someone you believe has wronged you, there is recourse.

What recourse were the parents who lost children to badly built schools in Sichuan province during the earthquake given? What assurances do they have that schools will be build right the second time around?

[yittz]

You can say what you want and believe what you want, but do expect backlash for inflammatory and ignorant comments despite what the forum tolerates.

China walked into communism in the midst of strife and poverty, as it gave hope to those starving millions that have been wronged by capitalism. Yes the government continues to wrong millions, but that's the price of a stable society. Yes you disagree with it, but that doesn't mean it's not what the majority of PRC citizens want. If there was a vote you opinion worth nothing.

Democracy is far from perfect. Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean it's the best thing for the country. Politicians ends up trying to strike a balance between doing what's best for the country with doing what will get them votes from those ignorant majority. The majority are self serving and short sighted. Ironically Bush might be an example of a stupid majority, but maybe in a few years we view his efforts as successful to the US given what he claimed out of the Middle East.

[ByTmE]

Democracy is far from perfect. Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean it's the best thing for the country.

...so true...so true.
Family Vote [6 members] for summer vacation
[3] Votes for Canada [Mom, Dad, Auntie]
[1] Vote for Japan [Brother...potential hot girls]
[1] Vote for New Zealand [Brother...because his BooBoo is there]
[1] Vote for Laos [Sister]

The siblings could not come to an agreement. Now there are [3] disgruntled adults being forced to go to Canada for the 5th time. Not cool.

[Dirt]

You can say what you want and believe what you want, but do expect backlash for inflammatory and ignorant comments despite what the forum tolerates.

I wonder what would happen to you if you were in the PRC and you publically said that the CCP was ignorant and wrong?

YES! I can "say" and "believe" whatever I want and not be afraid of being put in jail or to disappear into the night. Isn't Democracy grand? Let's take a moment and appreciate that.

[Cesare]

YES! I can "say" and "believe" whatever I want and not be afraid of being put in jail or to disappear into the night. Isn't Democracy grand? Let's take a moment and appreciate that.

Dirt:
I'm starting to think that this is either a joke none of us is getting - or that you actually ARE trying to annoy the shit out of majority of people here.

Let's go back a few steps.
You pick an isolated incident and use it as an argument to condemn the whole country as "uncivilised".
Pembie provides textual proof that similar isolated incidents are not exclusive to China and that it can happen in any civilized society. Such as the US. (See? Civilized society - US.)
YOU accuse Pembie of denigrating the US.
Yittz somewhat overreacts but given the context, I don't really blame him.
...And the rest of your posts in this thread just reminds me of what Spielberg did to Amistad.

[Dirt]

I can't change minds. I can only express my own opinions.