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Thread: Do you like the idea that in wulin, nobody is TRULY invincible?

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Do you like the idea that in wulin, nobody is TRULY invincible?

    I absolutely do.

    While there must definitely be a strongest fighter whom no one can singly defeat, I do not believe that there should be any fighter so superior that no combination of other great fighters or strategies can defeat him/her. There must be some limit, or we're not talking about the martial arts of human beings anymore, but about omnipotent gods. Wuxia fiction is about human beings...epically great human beings, but definitely human beings, not gods. If we were interested in gods, we'd read mythology and religious texts, not wuxia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I absolutely do.

    While there must definitely be a strongest fighter whom no one can singly defeat, I do not believe that there should be any fighter so superior that no combination of other great fighters or strategies can defeat him/her. There must be some limit or we're not talking about the martial arts of human beings anymore, but about omnipotent gods. Wuxia fiction is about human beings...epically great human beings, but definitely human beings, but not gods. If we were interested in gods, we'd read mythology and religious texts, not wuxia.
    This is obvious. Wuxia fighters are human being so no matter how strong they are, they are not invincible. Just like UFC fighters, Brock Lesnar can be considered the strongest fighter but definitely not invincible. Combination of any two heavy weight fighters can kick his butt.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I don't even like the idea that there is ONE fighter so strong that under all circumstances, no ONE OTHER fighter can defeat him.

    I prefer that no matter how strong, if the other guy catches you at a bad timing (sick, still sleeping, taking a crap etc) , you still lose.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    That is where Gu Long really shines. He really places an emphasis on no one person ever being completely invincible. Overconfidence, surroundings, mental states, fate, and a number of other things always ensure that no one is ever truly unbeatable no matter how much they believe it themselves.

    In fact, he makes a point out of it in many of his novels:

    Yan Nantian was considered the number sword in the world, but due to his rashness and overconfidence was caught off guard and ambushed in the Valley of Evils.

    Old Man Sun was ranked as #1 in the Book of Weapons but it was hinted at that he let his skills deteriorate too much while focusing on rhetoric about the pinnacle of of martial arts and was easily dispatched by Shangguan Jinhong.

    Chu Liuxiang on many different occasions took down opponents much stronger than him (Stone Guanyin, Water Matriarch) through cunning, quick thinking and luck.

    Gong Jiu, so powerful that he was able to toy with Liu Xiaofeng and co, was taken down due to one of his own personal (and very Gu Long-esque) weaknesses.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I found Gong Jiu's downfall pathetic. Gu Long always find a way for his non-main powerhouses to go down.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Yeah I'm not even sure I like the power gap between the Greats and everybody else in LOCH or Wuji and everyone else in HSDS. Much more fun if the Quan Zhen members (pretty much next tier after Greats) would actually be able to block a stance or two one on one against a Great.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yeah I'm not even sure I like the power gap between the Greats and everybody else in LOCH or Wuji and everyone else in HSDS. Much more fun if the Quan Zhen members (pretty much next tier after Greats) would actually be able to block a stance or two one on one against a Great.
    I think they can. Ma Yuk or Yau Chui Gei can probably last two or three strokes against a Great before succumbing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think they can. Ma Yuk or Yau Chui Gei can probably last two or three strokes against a Great before succumbing.
    They haven't really shown they can. Any time they were able to fend off an attack or counter attack like Ma Yu or Qiu Chuji has done, there were still 5-6 Quan Zhen members waving their swords around and somewhat trying to protect them/attack Huang Yaoshi. In a one on one fight with no other members to distract them, a Great could easily dispatch them.

    The Quan Zhen members can't be much better than Lingzi Xiang Ren (the Big Hand Print guy, Jin lacky) and Huang Yaoshi instantly defeated him in one blow by grabbing his neck with no special technique whatsoever. I'd think against even Qiu Chuji in a one on one fight, he'd be able to use an unblockable grab or palm strike.

    Let's not forget Yang Guo defeating the Mongol mercenaries in one blow, who are considerably higher than Quan Zhen members, and them sweeping them around like toys later on with palm wind. Guo Jing has also shown even with like 5 people attacking him, he can throw a dragon palm and instantly gib any of the mercenaries. Also in the beginning of ROCH he pretty much defeats Huo Du who is better than some of the QZ members in one blow pretty much. Too many one hit KO's against the tier right below them.
    Last edited by tape; 04-04-10 at 02:45 AM.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    They haven't really shown they can. Any time they were able to fend off an attack or counter attack like Ma Yu or Qiu Chuji has done, there were still 5-6 Quan Zhen members waving their swords around and somewhat trying to protect them/attack Huang Yaoshi. In a one on one fight with no other members to distract them, a Great could easily dispatch them.
    Two or three strokes is pretty easy.

    The Quan Zhen members can't be much better than Lingzi Xiang Ren (the Big Hand Print guy, Jin lacky) and Huang Yaoshi instantly defeated him in one blow by grabbing his neck with no special technique whatsoever. I'd think against even Qiu Chuji in a one on one fight, he'd be able to use an unblockable grab or palm strike.
    I believe that both Wong Chui 1 and Yau Chui Gei has each managed to hold off Ling Tze Seung Yan plus two other Jin mercenaries, albeit not for long. The best Cheun Jen Sect disciples can manage to last a short time against a Great by themselves before going down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Two or three strokes is pretty easy.



    I believe that both Wong Chui 1 and Yau Chui Gei has each managed to hold off Ling Tze Seung Yan plus two other Jin mercenaries, albeit not for long. The best Cheun Jen Sect disciples can manage to last a short time against a Great by themselves before going down.
    Err this is simply not true. Qiu Chuji was put into panic and waved his sword and sleeves frantically and would have been defeated in one stance, two stances MAX if his fellow members didn't come rescue him.

    The stronger Jin mercenaries like Lingzi are no less than 80% of Qiu Chuji.

    If you don't want to read the translations for whatever reason (all three have been complete for what like 4 years) then at least read the fight scenes! They're the most fun anyway.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    There's one particular skill QCJ could use that theoretically should allow him to do OK against a Great for a short time, possibly:

    He switched the sword over to his left hand and began using a skill that he’d never used in combat before, ‘Swordsmanship of Common Demise’. The sword flashed as one move after another came flying towards the vitals of Ke Zhen’E, Zhu Cong, and the monk Jiaomu; he wasn’t defending at all, every single one of his moves was an attack.

    The name ‘Swordsmanship of Common Demise’ was designed for a person to fight for his life against a much more powerful opponent. Every move is designed to attack the enemy in a vital spot with incredible force and without the slightest care for one’s own life. Although this is a highly refined sword skill, it’s actually very similar to those scraps between ruffians and the lowlifes of the streets. As it turns out the Quanzhen Sect has a nemesis that resides in the western regions. This man was much more powerful than any of the Seven Masters of Quanzhen, and he was as ruthless as he was powerful. At one time only the disciples’ master could subdue and control this man, but now that the master had passed away, there was a chance that this man could come back to the central plains at any time and destroy the entire Quanzhen Sect. The Seven Masters of Quanzhen do have a “Big Dipper Formation” that could contain this man; however, this formation only works with all seven disciples present. There was the possibility that they might run into this man without every one being present. This ‘Swordsmanship of Common Demise’ was meant to be used against this man, especially in single combat, in the hopes that the two combatants would both perish and thus preserve the sect. Poisoned and surrounded by three martial arts masters, Qiu Chuji had no choice but to use this skill.
    It was designed to be used against OYF in a 1v1 fight. I can't imagine that it'd be 100% useless; I'm pretty sure it'd let QCJ last for at least more than a few stances.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  12. #12
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Sounds like DG9J and what our beloved Chong'Er used against DFBB eh? The part about it being similar to techniques of 'ruffians and lowlifes' bear a striking similarity to JY's descripton of the 'cheap attack' Chong'Er used when trying to poke DFBB's eye.

    Wonder what would happen if all 7 QZ were present and they used this tactic instead of the Big Dipper against a Great.
    Last edited by CC; 04-04-10 at 04:36 AM.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    I remember when GJ was fighting MCF and was near her ability, putting him above the likes of top QZ fighters, HYS then came and pretty much toyed with him. Dislocating he shoulders without throwing a palm or a kick.
    Member of HYS fanclub -> click here to join group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    There's one particular skill QCJ could use that theoretically should allow him to do OK against a Great for a short time, possibly:



    It was designed to be used against OYF in a 1v1 fight. I can't imagine that it'd be 100% useless; I'm pretty sure it'd let QCJ last for at least more than a few stances.
    I don't believe that sword skill would really work much better than being defensive with their regular orthodox Quan Zhen swordplay.

    The idea just seems a bit flawed since Ouyang Feng is just so much more powerful than them that no matter what they do he can pretty much blow right past it. Having a skill that makes you even more reckless doesn't seem too smart. (not that much can be done anyway)

    There is a 0% chance for them to beat Ouyang Feng in a one on one fight, so making the skill really seems to be a waste of time. It did work well against people of his own caliber, but against a Great, I'd be surprised if it didn't make them get defeated even FASTER.

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    I hate godlike characters, in most cases these dudes just ruin the books. The only exception to me is Supermonk who makes Dugu Qiubai's achievements look like sh!t.

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    Senior Member ByTmE's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about this topic for a while. To the point that I forgot to make any input.

    Frankly, the existence of a TRULY invincible individual has it's appeal. A wuxia character like this might either be really boring or have interesting quirks. It would work out if you were his[her] fangirl/boy . For some reason, it did not even cross my mind to think of any of the male wuxia characters discussed above. I immediately thought of uncontested and unsurpassable beauty of Princess Fragrance. Though the idea of having such a person exist is interesting, it's just not exciting/fun/challenging or even remotely interesting to debate feminine beauty when she exists. Since it's not debatable according to Jin Yong canon. BOOH. I've seen a couple of threads about this. It just never gets anywhere, especially when people start debating personal preference, then it's just redundant.

    This is the problem with having a truly invincible alpha character. For sure the idea's nifty, but not fun at all. I don't have any exceptions for this. I'm a firm believer that everyone's got a shot at achieving there aim, no matter how slim. In addition, I must confess, I like picking favorites and don't appreciate when my person of preference gets "KO-ed" cause of some all powerful and less appealing entity. That's not fair!
    I like me.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    No one is ever TRULY invincible. What ticks me off more is that main characters never die in their story, except one did in DGSD, and that's one reason I like DGSD and its dead protagonist.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    No one is ever TRULY invincible. What ticks me off more is that main characters never die in their story, except one did in DGSD, and that's one reason I like DGSD and its dead protagonist.
    The condition for this is difficult to meet because once the protagonist dies, the story must end...unless it continues with a *new* protagonist.

    It's been done before, but not in wuxia.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't believe that sword skill would really work much better than being defensive with their regular orthodox Quan Zhen swordplay.

    The idea just seems a bit flawed since Ouyang Feng is just so much more powerful than them that no matter what they do he can pretty much blow right past it. Having a skill that makes you even more reckless doesn't seem too smart. (not that much can be done anyway)

    There is a 0% chance for them to beat Ouyang Feng in a one on one fight, so making the skill really seems to be a waste of time. It did work well against people of his own caliber, but against a Great, I'd be surprised if it didn't make them get defeated even FASTER.

    Ren Woxing gives proof that a Quanzhen 7 disciple could defeat a Great (albeit at the cost of their own life) and you dismiss it based solely on the idea that a Great is simply too powerful; you provide no proof to the contrary to what has been posited to you. You dismiss it out of hand, merely because it doesn't agree with your own beliefs on who is and who isn't and what is and what isn't powerful.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Ren Woxing gives proof that a Quanzhen 7 disciple could defeat a Great (albeit at the cost of their own life)...
    I don't know about *defeat*, but put up much better and longer-lasting resistance than one would expect...heck, yes.

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