Statements by Jin Yong that you believe are false

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

Considering ZCS compares XX to Z3F in ability, I'd say it's more ZCS being really bad at judging ability...

That's pretty true, ZCS stated that Z3f is only slightly stronger than XX yet Z3f managed to tap on a Xuan Ming's elder's shoulder, as opposed to Kong Jian tapping on XX's

[PJ]

For example, Jin Yong said that Guo Jing would take about 1000 stances to win against GWM. I can't imagine it would take that long. GWM was sub-Great level almost every time he appeared, despite statements saying he was Great-level.

I just found that in an earlier exchange, Jin Yong said between GWM and Guo Jing, it was hard for either side to win in under several tens of stances (二人均是并世雄杰，数十招内决难分判高下). I find this more accurate than "1000 stances".

[odbayarb2000]

Zhang Cuishan's thought about Zhang San Feng being slightly better than Xie Xun. Based on other evidence, Zhang San Feng should unquestionably dominate Xie Xun.

[PJ]

Zhang Cuishan's thought about Zhang San Feng being slightly better than Xie Xun. Based on other evidence, Zhang San Feng should unquestionably dominate Xie Xun.

This is a famous one. But it was a thought from Zhang Cuishan, so it doesn't count as "statements by Jin Yong", which I meant as statements directly from the narrator.

[chibidaisuke]

I agree with some of Candide's points on Guo Jing. But then even if Guo Jing is indeed not talented in martial arts I don't think he's totally pathetic and utterly hopeless at learning martial arts like some people make him out to be.

[tape]

I agree with some of Candide's points on Guo Jing. But then even if Guo Jing is indeed not talented in martial arts I don't think he's totally pathetic and utterly hopeless at learning martial arts like some people make him out to be.

Considering he reached Greats level, I don't think anyone makes him out to be pathetic and utterly hopeless. He is just not a martial arts talent.

[Vic85]

Considering he reached Greats level, I don't think anyone makes him out to be pathetic and utterly hopeless. He is just not a martial arts talent.

GJ did manage to master the mutual hand combat which only ZBT and later on XLN know.

[tape]

GJ did manage to master the mutual hand combat which only ZBT and later on XLN know.

Because of a ridiculous requirement that only those that don't think much or are simple minded can master it. It's a bit silly.

Regardless, just because he mastered an art that others cannot doesn't mean he is a martial arts talent, just as a dunk champion is not the best basketball player.

[Snafu3721]

Oh Tape!!

I'm going to refrain my arse to the darndest to not post a response to your assessment of GJ's talent =P

[ChanceEncounter]

I just found that in an earlier exchange, Jin Yong said between GWM and Guo Jing, it was hard for either side to win in under several tens of stances (二人均是并世雄杰，数十招内决难分判高下). I find this more accurate than "1000 stances".

To be fair, the phrase "分判高下" refers more to getting an estimation of their martial arts level (who's better/worse) rather than winning outright. If it takes several tens of stances just to see who's martial arts are marginally better, than it's entirely believable that it could take hundreds or even a thousand to crown a victor.

[PJ]

To be fair, the phrase "分判高下" refers more to getting an estimation of their martial arts level (who's better/worse) rather than winning outright. If it takes several tens of stances just to see who's martial arts are marginally better, than it's entirely believable that it could take hundreds or even a thousand to crown a victor.

I would argue that if one could demonstrate even slight superiority in several tens of stances, it won't take several hundred stances to win. Fight taking that long to win are usually described as evenly matched for a long time. When one side begins to show superiority, it doesn't take long to end the fight.

[ChanceEncounter]

I would argue that if one could demonstrate even slight superiority in several tens of stances, it won't take several hundred stances to win. Fight taking that long to win are usually described as evenly matched for a long time. When one side begins to show superiority, it doesn't take long to end the fight.

In an actual life or death struggle, it would take more than the amount of stances it took to demonstrate marginal superiority, that's for sure.

If it takes at least several tens of stances then, it's not a stretch to say that it would take an appreciably greater number of stances to achieve a victory.

[PJ]

In an actual life or death struggle, it would take more than the amount of stances it took to demonstrate marginal superiority, that's for sure.

If it takes at least several tens of stances then, it's not a stretch to say that it would take an appreciably greater number of stances to achieve a victory.

Jin Yong has shown us many cases where the contestants were evenly matched for a lengthy period of time, and as soon as one side emerged as being superior, victory was secured shortly thereafter.

Examples: Yang Guo vs Qiu Qianren, Ding Chunqiu vs Su Xinghe, Qiu Qianren vs XLN in running, Yang Guo vs GWM (the last time, when GWM feared he would be subdued soon).

I don't recall any case where one side demonstrated superiority early on, and the fight dragged on for 10 times longer length, unless the superior side did that intentionally. Note: excludes cases where one side is better but is scared, since technically the weaker side has the advantage of scaring the better side, so they're still evenly matched. Examples: Xuanming Elder vs Mijue, GWM vs tons of people.

(OK, I can think of one example: Zhu Ziliu vs Huodu. I think Zhu was an idiot in that fight, he could have defeated Huodu much earlier but wasted tons of time and got lost in the end)

You might be using real life reasoning, but my reason is based on what we know about Jin Yong's universe.

[ChanceEncounter]

How many in the books is irrelevant. Nothing about what JY depicts is ever stated that it's intended to be a fair simple random sample of all the fights in Wulin. The fact that there is nothing logically exclusive about two fighters that take several tens of stances just to see who may or may not be marginally ahead vs two fighters that may or may not take hundreds of stances to decide a victor, and that we have the word from the author regarding the possibility, is enough.

If I wanted to be particular, YG and GWM fought on top of the tower for several hundreds of stances, and GWM did not suddenly fear that he was going to lose; he was worried for some time, finally put at some marginal disadvantage, and then used underhanded tactics. That put YG at a significant disadvantage, but he was able to hold off for a number of stances before he felt that he was going to lose. If either of them had more room to maneuver or tactically retreat, it could have easily gone on for more stances.

[flamer]

Let's not forget even Huang Rong fought Ouyang Feng for tens of stances and not appear to be at a disadvantage. Swift dominance is not required to demonstrate superiority.

[PJ]

In LOCH, Jin Yong wrote: "Unless Qu Lingfeng were to return from the grave, no one can know whether Shagu was retarded by origin or by trauma."

This is false, because Qu Lingfeng didn't return from the grave, but we nevertheless later found out that the answer is by trauma. How do we know? B/c Jin Yong wrote so in ROCH!

[PJ]

How many in the books is irrelevant. Nothing about what JY depicts is ever stated that it's intended to be a fair simple random sample of all the fights in Wulin. The fact that there is nothing logically exclusive about two fighters that take several tens of stances just to see who may or may not be marginally ahead vs two fighters that may or may not take hundreds of stances to decide a victor, and that we have the word from the author regarding the possibility, is enough.

Except the author also demonstrated on more than one occasion that GWM < Guo Jing, and on numerous other occasions that GWM underperforms, so there's ample evidence for me to believe that it would take much less than 1000 stances for Guo Jing to bring down GWM, and thus that statement by Jin Yong is false.

[bliss]

In LOCH, Jin Yong wrote: "Unless Qu Lingfeng were to return from the grave, no one can know whether Shagu was retarded by origin or by trauma."

This is false, because Qu Lingfeng didn't return from the grave, but we nevertheless later found out that the answer is by trauma. How do we know? B/c Jin Yong wrote so in ROCH!

We can assume Jin Yong is Qu Lingfeng, can't we?

[Dirt]

Shagu deserved a better end than she had. Why does Jin Yong hate intellectually handicapped people?

[PJ]

Another possible inconsistency:

In LOCH chapter 28, it is said that Qiu Qianren expanded the small Iron Palm Clan to a large scale. ( 裘千仞非但武功惊人，而且极有才略，数年之间，将原来一个小小帮会整顿得好生兴旺 )

However, later in chapter 32, it is said that Qiu Qianren's master Shangguan Jiannan is the one who did that. ( 上官剑南愤恨奸臣当道，领着一批兄弟在荆襄一带落草，后来入了铁掌帮。不久老帮主去世，他接任帮主之位。这 铁掌帮本来只是个小小帮会，经他力加整顿，多行侠义之事，两湖之间的英雄好汉、忠义之士闻风来归，不过数年 声势大振，在江湖上骎寻已可以与北方的丐帮分庭抗礼。 )

This means Iron Palm Clan wasn't a small clan when Qiu Qianren inherited it, which invalidates Jin Yong's first statement.