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Thread: Prominent CPC critic gives up.

  1. #41
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    You're being absurd. I have every vested interest in Taiwan's sovereignty. Are you saying just because I have nothing to lose in the Democratization of China, I should just let China allow Taiwan to be treated as a bastard stepchild of the world? That I should allow Taiwan to be treated without dignity? WTF?


    And you're wrong. I very much believe that the people of China will benefit from Democratization. I have family in China too.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 02:00 AM.

  2. #42
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    You're being absurd. I have every vested interest in Taiwan's sovereignty. Are youbsying just because I have nothing to lose in the Democratization of China, I should just let China allow Taiwan to be treated as a bastard stepchild of the world? That I should allow Taiwan to ne treated without dignity? WTF?
    You have every right to be indignant about how China squeezes Taiwan politically on an international level (although that's improving). Taiwan is your country. I have many Taiwanese friends who feel similarly. You have a lot of vested interest in Taiwan.

    But you have zero skin in the game, zero risk, when it comes to what will happen to the Chinese people if the process of democratization results in catastrophe. Just as a reminder, there are a billion human beings in China that are affected by this, NOT just Taiwan.

    Feel more than free to complain about China "treating Taiwanese like a bastard stepchild". But don't try to make claims that "you feel bad for Chinese people" or "how terrible and oppressive China is", or that your posts on human rights are because you "care about the Chinese people." Because as your recent posts have shown, that's total bull.

    And the people here have (and will continue to) call you out on it.
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  3. #43
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    And you're wrong. I very much believe that the people of China will benefit from Democratization. I have family in China too.
    And if you are wrong? If they don't benefit from it? If governmental overthrow results in chaos and mass poverty (witness post-Soviet Russia)? Who will pay the price? You?

    No.

    The Chinese people.

    And that's why you have no skin in the game, and that's why you have no credibility or authority to speak on this subject, when you claim to speak for the Chinese people. Your family in China may. You who have never even visited those relatives in China don't.

    Feel free to speak on it as a Taiwanese person who wants the best for Taiwan. Don't try to claim the same for China. You don't have the right, because you aren't going to be paying the price if you end up being wrong.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    You seeM to think I want China to fail. Far from it. I just want China to leave Taiwan alone. But as long as the PRC insists on making Taiwan a part of China, I will continue to speak out and "have skin" in this game to make sure if the day come and China does absorb Taiwan, it's because the people of Taiwan voted for it. My skin in this game because the PRC insists on it.

    And I do care about China. 3 of my grandparents and my Dad are from China. And I still have family there. I just happn to think That freedom
    of speech, religion an press is the way to go.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I don't think Democracy in China will fail. You seem to think I'm advocating a revolution that will cause thousands of lives. No, sorry, I'm not a Maoist. I do believe in evolution, I also think the PRC needs to be pushed in that direction.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 02:13 AM.

  6. #46
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    You seeM to think I want China to fail. Far from it. I just want China to leave Taiwan alone. But as long as the PRC insists on making Taiwan a part of China, I will continue to speak out and "have skin" in this game to make sure if the day come and China does absorb Taiwan, it's because the people of Taiwan voted for it. My skin in this game because the PRC insists on it.

    And I do care about China. 3 of my grandparents and my Dad are from China. And I still have family there. I just happn to think That freedom
    of speech, religion an press is the way to go.
    I don't think you want China to fail; I just don't believe you care about the risk/chance of China failing if it follows the path of governmental overthrow which you seem to be advocating for.

    One last time. Having skin in the game means more than you having something at stake; it means that if you "lose the game" (ie, do not get the results you anticipated from the path you chose), you are not at risk. You need to have more than something to benefit from; you need something at risk.

    I'll ask more directly then. Tell me. If you are wrong, and governmental overthrow does result in China failing (ie, you "lose the game")...what do you lose?
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
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  7. #47
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I don't think Democracy in China will fail. You seem to think I'm advocating a revolution that will cause thousands of lives. No, sorry, I'm not a Maoist. I do believe in evolution, I also think the PRC needs to be pushed in that direction.
    Okay. That's fair enough, and I can agree with that to a certain degree. Just remember that in the end, the only people whose pushes matter is that of the Chinese people. Let's end it here.
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I still admit I don't get your viewpoint. Why would I care about what my opponent has to lose? I just care about winning. Does Tiger Woods care about what his opponents have to lose if he wins? Is hebsupposed to think, oh that guy will go bankrupt if he doesn't win this purse? Does it make Tiger any less a part of the game? Should he purposefully lose? It's a doggy dog world. If I don't work hard to win, someone else will win. Why not me? I have my own problems and the only way i'll solve them is if I'm successful, if I win. The only person I can change and take care of is me.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 02:30 AM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I still admit I don't get your viewpoint. Why would I care about what my opponent has to lose? I just care about winning. Does Tiger Woods care about what his opponents have to lose if he wins? Is hebsupposed to think, oh that guy will go bankrupt if he doesn't win this purse? Does it make Tiger any less a part of the game? Should he purposefully lose? It's a doggy dog world. If I don't work hard to win, someone else will win. Why not me? I have my own problems and the only way i'll solve them is if I'm successful, if I win. The only person I can change and take care of is me.
    You don't have to care about the Chinese people, esp. if you consider them your enemy. Just don't try to claim to be speaking on their behalf. You aren't fit to, and you aren't qualified to. And plenty of people will call you out on it if and when you try.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-09-10 at 02:34 AM.
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    Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by xJadedx View Post
    If you want a debate, open a thread in the debate forum. No one is obligated to debate in this thread (and even in the debate threads, people are still free to make whatever observations they want).

    If you can only dish it, but can't take it (even things as little as jokes), too bad.
    Off Topic: Jadey, this World Happenings thread is a cousin of OD. One way or the way, it would end up becoming a mini-me of OD thread.

    BTW, IMO, he has an EQ slightly higher than and more open-minded than TC. TC can be loveable in his own ways, minus his favouritism in eating of exotic animals.

    Slightly on topic: I wonder if I could migrate to India.
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  11. #51
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    I'm qualified to talk about the Chines people because the PRC considers me a citizen. Even if I wasn't Chinese, I think it's everbody's responsibility to speak out where they see something wrong. If the USA does something wrong, I fully expect the international comunity to speak up because somebody has to.

    Gao Shizheng tried to speak out. And though he did not succeed, at least he tried. I salute you Mr Gao.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 02:38 AM.

  12. #52
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Heh, let's just end it with a salute from me to Mr. Gao Zhisheng as well. China does need more like him.
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
    Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
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  13. #53
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    I will be frank - not here to debate. Clearly when you harp on empathetically about freedom and democracy for your 'opponent', all you really care about is the wellbeing of Taiwan.

    When posts like RWX's are so carefully worded and logically presented, and you continuously miss his points and change subjects; then I really want to give you the benefit of doubt and hope you were trolling for a good laugh.

    Meh I can't believe how easy people can hide behind a veil of ignorance.
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  14. #54
    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    If you disagree with me, let's have a substantive discussion. But spare me your insults.
    Why is it an insult?
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  15. #55
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    I will be frank - not here to debate. Clearly when you harp on empathetically about freedom and democracy for your 'opponent', all you really care about is the wellbeing of Taiwan.
    Of course. Duh. The PRC and ROC are still technically at war and those 1400 missiles proves it; the PRC is the aggressor! Why wouldn't my sole purpose be for the good of Taiwan??? I'm from Taiwan! And Mainland China is threatning the lives of the Taiwanese with 1400 missiles and the promise of annihilation!!! What about that aren't you getting??????? Why wouldn't I want the CPC to be removed from power????? Why wouldn't I want them to lose?

    RWX's points only come from the Mainland China's side. His view is extremely one-sided. I won't suffer if Democratization fails in China so I have no skin in this game. But will he suffer if Taiwan loses it's freedoms or, worse, if China sets off those 1400 missiles? No, he won't. He loses nothing from the subjugation or annihilation of Taiwan. But I could lose everything. That's my skin in this game, that's why it's so important to me that China Democratizes. Or at the very least, the very, very least, just leave Taiwan alone.

    But I know you're not here to debate. Just to make adhominem attacks and run.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-09-10 at 06:15 PM.

  16. #56
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Of course. Duh. The PRC and ROC are still technically at war and those 1400 missiles proves it; the PRC is the aggressor! Why wouldn't my sole purpose be for the good of Taiwan??? I'm from Taiwan! And Mainland China is threatning the lives of the Taiwanese with 1400 missiles and the promise of annihilation!!! What about that aren't you getting??????? Why wouldn't I want the CPC to be removed from power????? Why wouldn't I want them to lose?
    You have every reason to want the CCP to be removed from power, but don't try to spin it as it being for the sake of the mainland Chinese people. It aint. And that's abundantly clear to every single person present.

    PS: Aside from the fact that you continue to be full of exaggerations ('annihilation'? really?), if the PRC government had the same attitude towards 'winning' and 'losing' as you did, Taiwan as an autonomous province/country would no longer exist.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 04-11-10 at 01:20 PM.
    Blademaster. Hero. General. He was the best there ever was.
    Butcher. Murderer. Traitor. All that he loved, he had destroyed.
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  17. #57
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    You have every reason to want the CCP to be removed from power, but don't try to spin it as it being for the sake of the mainland Chinese people. It aint. And that's abundantly clear to every single person present.
    Let's have an accounting of everybody who has posted in this thread. Everybody who has posted in this thread, please speak up:

    Are you from:

    1) Mainland China
    2) Taiwan, Blue Coalition
    3) Taiwan, Green Coalition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    PS: Aside from the fact that you continue to be full of exaggerations ('annihilation'? really?), if the PRC government had the same attitude towards 'winning' and 'losing' as you did, Taiwan as an autonomous province/country would no longer exist.
    Taiwan is a Democracy. There are some who want reunification, there are some who want independence. The current administration in Taiwan is working towards closer ties with Taiwan. If the people who are currently out of power wins elections and get back into power and decides to declare independence, can you guarantee that the PRC won't use those missiles? If you can honestly say they won't use those missiles: why has the PRC not stopped adding more missiles? If the PRC doesn't intend to use force to subjugate Taiwan, why are they still adding missiles? The number of missiles keep getting added to every single year.
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-11-10 at 08:24 PM.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Let's have an accounting of everybody who has posted in this thread. Everybody who has posted in this thread, please speak up:

    Are you from:

    1) Mainland China
    2) Taiwan, Blue Coalition
    3) Taiwan, Green Coalition
    How is this related to the post you quoted above?

    For the record, RWX is right. You are simply masking your true intentions with care for the (Mainland) Chinese people.

    At first, you seem to want a change in Chinese government because the Chinese are suffering from it. But as it goes on, it became obvious (you let the cat out of the bag) that you cared not for what's going on in China and what happened to it, so long as Taiwan is kept safe from a war that is unlikely to happen and thus would not "lose".

    A country simply cannot launch a war as and when it likes. Even the US has to come up with an excuse to attack Iraq. And attacking Taiwan will hurt China's credibility more than anything else (especially when they've always been waving a peaceful/defensive military expansion banner), and a wave of NEGATIVE consequences are likely to happen.

    But by then, maybe everyone will lose their nerves over the CPC government and it will topple. And then you will be the first to celebrate. Taiwan got bombed? Oh, you don't care anymore.
    Last edited by Guo Xiang; 04-11-10 at 09:38 PM.
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  19. #59
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    A country simply cannot launch a war as and when it likes.
    You've completely glossed over the fact (that I mentioned in an earlier post) that the PRC and the ROC are technically still at war; no peace treaty has ever been signed. The PRC needs only to point to this fact to launch the 1400 missiles. The only thing preventing them from doing so is our country, the USA.

    You Mainland Chinese Americans are only looking at things from the side of the Communist Party of China and not any other side. I'm only guilty of committing the same subjectivity!
    Last edited by Dirt; 04-11-10 at 10:44 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    You've completely glossed over the fact (that I mentioned in an earlier post) that the PRC and the ROC are technically still at war; no peace treaty has ever been signed. The PRC needs only to point to this fact to launch the 1400 missiles. The only thing preventing them from doing so is our country, the USA.

    You Mainland Chinese Americans are only looking at things from the side of the Communist Party of China and not any other side. I'm only guilty of committing the same subjectivity!
    Yes, you are guilty of committing the same subjectivity and no one fault you for that. From what I read, RWX and the likes only have problem with you claiming to care for the wellbeing of the Chinese citizens by wanting democracy when the truth is you are only concern for Taiwan's wellbeing.

    You are only concern about the missiles pointing at Taiwan and concern that you won't be able to vote for your president if Taiwan join back China. But, earlier you wrote something like this

    I'm sad that people in the PRC don't have the same rights as me. I do admit to not understanding why others wouldn't want the same thing for the citizens of China, why they support such oppression.
    Dude, you aren't sad for the citizens of China. You are only worried about Taiwan.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

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