Teoh Beng Hock

[Han Solo]

Can any malaysian please tell me about this case?

The first i learnt about the case was via youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQK3jNrg9E

and wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teoh_Beng_Hock

Seems like a bad bad case.

Han Solo

[Ace High]

Can any malaysian please tell me about this case?

The first i learnt about the case was via youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQK3jNrg9E

and wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teoh_Beng_Hock

Seems like a bad bad case.

Han Solo

There are two version (as usual), one is from the authority and one from TBH's political party.

Which version do you want to know?

[Han Solo]

The truth should be nice. :O

Both please.

and how it affects the society,

thanks.

[Ace High]

The truth should be nice. :O

Both please.

and how it affects the society,

thanks.

It's a loooong topic to be discussed in detail, but I'll try my best so summarised it.

His political party, the Democratic Action Party (DAP) said that his death is a murder by Suruhanjaya Pencegahan Rasuah Malaysia (Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission, MACC), who tried to force out confessions out of him for some corruption cases. Some said he was thrown out of the 14th Floor by the investigating officers.

Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand vs. Dr Peter Venezis

In October 2009, Pornthip Rojanasunand, testified in the inquest by saying that there is an 80% probability that Teoh Beng Hock's death was caused by homicide. Pornthip, who is the director-general of the Thai Ministry of Justice's Central Institute of Forensic Science, went on to say that it was possible that Teoh was unconscious when he fell to his death from the office building. She also testified that Teoh could have been strangled until he lost consciousness before the fall, or blacked out from the pain due to other injuries inflicted on him.

"(Teoh's becoming unconscious) could have possibly been the result of manual strangulation, and secondly from the pain from the gluteal region. From the buttocks," said Pornthip, who is the Selangor government's expert witness.

However, after the second autopsy was performed, Porthip contradicted her previous statement by saying, "From the injuries he sustained, there was no forensic evidence to substantiate such a claim (of having been beaten up or tortured)." What make its became more interesting, Pornthip came to her conclusion of "80% homicide and 20% suicide" just by looking into pictures of the incident and did not bother to visit the scene.

Dr Peter Venezis who was hired by the MACC for the second autopsy, testified at the coroner’s court that political aide Teoh Beng Hock was not unconscious when he plunged to his death.

"None of the injuries show that he was killed by other means and thrown out of the window,” said Dr Vanezis, who was engaged by the MACC when a second post-mortem was carried out in November.

Dr Vanezis said some of the injuries also indicated that Teoh had tried to break his fall by landing on his feet first with his hands out. He said this was the natural reflex of a live person falling from height. He said studies had shown that even those committing suicide by falling from height had the same kind of reflex defensive injuries.

Dr Vanezis testifed that there was no evidence Teoh was manually strangled prior to his death plunge.

“The bruising of the neck region is part of the overall pattern of injury from the fall. The larynx and hyoid bone were intact,” he said, adding that there were no ligature marks, nail scratches or fingertip bruises there.

On the tear around the anal region, he said these were caused by pelvic injuries sustained in the fall.

Dr Vanezis said they resulted from the “free downward and upward movement of the sacrum (the triangular bone at the base of the spine) and coccyx (tailbone) which entirely dislocated from the ilium (the largest bone in the pelvis)”.

After the second autopsy, all doctors (including two from a local hospital) agreed that

i. Teoh was concious when he fell
ii. There is no sign of struggle on him, nor there is sign of him being tortured or beaten

It is unlogical for a concious fully grown up man not to struggle in order to save himself from being thrown out of a window.

Who benefits more by Teoh's death?

MACC has nothing to gain from Teoh's death, instead they lost a key witness for some corruption cases and being blame for manslaughter, not to mention a reputation as an evil organisation.

DAP has alot of gain by Teoh's death, there is no longer a witness to stand against them, and they gain some considerable political milage.

How it affecting the society:

1. There are attempts to limit MACC's working hour into normal working hours only, i.e 8am to 5pm, 5 days a week only (either Monday to Friday or Sunday to Thursday).

2. There were some stunts from the politicians when the MACC came for questioning. At first they agreed to cooperate with MACC, but when there were some journalists around, they pretend that they were taken by force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiw_92UM7vI

[Ian Liew]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teoh_Beng_Hock

Everyone has an opinion on this, really. I don't know enough to comment, but enough to say that if I had that fool Razak as my defence lawyer, I'd never be able to sleep well unless I knew that the trial was fixed.

Here are some of the videos the way the trial is conducted:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQK3jNrg9E

The Malaysian government has the habit of making itself look bad, and putting its foot in things. As in Aesop's Fable "the boy who cried wolf", it's probably a case of nobody believing a liar even if they told the truth anymore. I have no idea what happened, but without better PR the MACC, and the government which is standing behind it, look doomed to humiliation, even if their control of the courts will probably ensure that they get the verdict they want.

[Ace High]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teoh_Beng_Hock

Everyone has an opinion on this, really. I don't know enough to comment, but enough to say that if I had that fool Razak as my defence lawyer, I'd never be able to sleep well unless I knew that the trial was fixed.

Here are some of the videos the way the trial is conducted:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQK3jNrg9E

The Malaysian government has the habit of making itself look bad, and putting its foot in things. As in Aesop's Fable "the boy who cried wolf", it's probably a case of nobody believing a liar even if they told the truth anymore. I have no idea what happened, but without better PR the MACC, and the government which is standing behind it, look doomed to humiliation, even if their control of the courts will probably ensure that they get the verdict they want.

There are cases when the Goverment and/or one of their agencies lost in the court. The recent one would be the Felda's case.

p/s: which Razak are you referring too?

[Ian Liew]

There are cases when the Goverment and/or one of their agencies lost in the court. The recent one would be the Felda's case.

p/s: which Razak are you referring too?

They also lost the Allah-in-church case, although they managed to get a stay of execution which looks likely to run perpetually.

Razak is the defending counsel for the MACC, I think.

[kidd]

Ace High, your summary seems to be very bias towards MACC and Dr. Vanezis. You gave a very short summary of Dr. Pornthip's conclusion that left out a lot of what she said and then gave a detailed summary of what Dr. Vanezis's conclusion.

Dr. Pornthip still maintained that Teoh Beng Hock was unconscious after she studied the second autopsy.

And then, there's that letter that the police did not disclose until recently.

MACC dug their own grave when they went after the opposition party members with great efficiency while the cases against the ruling party were run at snail pace (The cow case against the Selangor chief minister was quite ridiculous). Only after some public outcry did they fry some small fish from the ruling party.

I'm not PR supporter. I can see that both sides also don't smell that good. But, it's MACC who let down the rakyat first.

[Ian Liew]

And then, there's that letter that the police did not disclose until recently.

Goodness, yes, how on earth did I forget that. I don't know much about the case but I couldn't possibly ignore that. Finding a suicide note in the bag of the deceased and only revealing it a year later is just lame. Defence claimed they wanted to verify it before presenting it, but there's a conflict of interest. The defendant, in this case, is the MACC, supported by the police and government. They are not independent authorities tasked with providing an independent investigation into the matter, and should never (assuming the letter is real and they only found it the second time around, having not disclosed it the first time when the bag's contents were listed) have been given the privilege of holding on to the letter and checking out its contents before disclosing it. Even if they were telling the truth now, who on earth would believe them?

[Ace High]

Ace High, your summary seems to be very bias towards MACC and Dr. Vanezis. You gave a very short summary of Dr. Pornthip's conclusion that left out a lot of what she said and then gave a detailed summary of what Dr. Vanezis's conclusion.

Dr. Pornthip still maintained that Teoh Beng Hock was unconscious after she studied the second autopsy.

And then, there's that letter that the police did not disclose until recently.

MACC dug their own grave when they went after the opposition party members with great efficiency while the cases against the ruling party were run at snail pace (The cow case against the Selangor prime minister was quite ridiculous). Only after some public outcry did they fry some small fish from the ruling party.

I'm not PR supporter. I can see that both sides also don't smell that good. But, it's MACC who let down the rakyat first.

Well, since Pornthip did not give any convincing explanation in the first place. How could someone could tell 80% probality of homicide just looking at pictures and not doing some thorough investigation? At the first place she said Teoh was strangled, but after the second autopsy she said Teoh was not tortured or beaten.

There are a lot of big fishes from the ruling party that got their a** whipped by the MACC. For, instance, last year the office then-Minister of Tourism, Azalina Said got raided by the MACC. Kasitah Gaddam, then-Land and Cooperatives Development Minister was charged for graft and corruption. former Selangor Executive Councillor Shariff Jajang, was charged because he did not declare his assets in some company. Around last year, if I not mistaken there are some MPs from the ruling coalition that was charged for making some false programme claims. And there is Ling Liong Sik of MCA, because of the PKFZ scandal. An aide to the Second Finance Minister was nabbeb by the MACC.

p/s : It's Selangor Chief Minister, not Selangor Prime Minister. The cow case because he used Selangor's fund to give the cows to his parlimentary constituent of Bandar Tun Razak, which located in Wilayah Persekutuan Kuala Lumpur. The case was dropped because lack of sufficient evidence.

[kidd]

The case was dropped because lack of sufficient evidence.

And public outcry.

[Ace High]

And public outcry.

Which public? I only hear the PR politicians chanting "this is a conspiration by UMNO/BN to tarnish PR's image" everytime some issue arise.

there are a lot of BN's people who got investigated by the MACC. Some got prosecuted and some was not. But when the PR got investigated, they will chant the conspiration song again and again...

[kidd]

Which public? I only hear the PR politicians chanting "this is a conspiration by UMNO/BN to tarnish PR's image" everytime some issue arise.

From, what I can see, PR politicians and lay people.

I'm aware of this chant and PR making issues in a lot of things. But, this ridiculous case really angered people, making MACC head need to come out and give interviews. It's only after this case that MACC started investigating both sides.

Glad to see a BN/UMNO/government and MACC supporter here. At least, I get to hear a different tune from 'BN/UMNO/government is the devil'.

Btw, do you work for MACC? Just curious since you seem to know a lot about MACC's cases.

[Han Solo]

Can i ask why they need a coroner from Thailand?

Why not just get a local coroner from the University of Malaya or something?

At the top level, malaysian doctors are actually quite good.

Han Solo

[Ian Liew]

Can i ask why they need a coroner from Thailand?

Why not just get a local coroner from the University of Malaya or something?

At the top level, malaysian doctors are actually quite good.

Han Solo

Maybe they felt that a local doctor with a career at stake would be pressurised into giving a statement which would not compromise his future in his profession locally. The same reason why the MACC responded with a US coroner.

It's probably a bad idea to ask Malaysians for a neutral view on the matter, really. Our ruling party has worked itself into a position where you're either with them or against them, and it's quite difficult to look at them objectively anymore - you either support them or dislike them, and it's obvious in these posts who is who. Getting both points of view and trying to arrive at a balanced position is also more likely to stoke unpleasant argument way before any real conclusion remotely close to the truth is arrived at.

[Ace High]

From, what I can see, PR politicians and lay people.

I'm aware of this chant and PR making issues in a lot of things. But, this ridiculous case really angered people, making MACC head need to come out and give interviews. It's only after this case that MACC started investigating both sides.

Glad to see a BN/UMNO/government and MACC supporter here. At least, I get to hear a different tune from 'BN/UMNO/government is the devil'.

Btw, do you work for MACC? Just curious since you seem to know a lot about MACC's cases.

Actually, before this particular case happens, there were alot of BN leaders that got prosecuted by the BPR/MACC. However, those cases were never mentioned in the oppositions media.

The former Mentri Besar of Selangor, Khir Toyo was investigated by the MACC quite a few times during his tenure of office.

Four high-ranking officials of Ministry of Tourism was detained by MACC’s during April 2009, three month before Teoh’s case occured. Amongst them is the then-Minister’s aide. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

Datuk Shariff Jajang, then-Selangor Executive Councillor was prosecuted in 2005, 4 years before Teoh’s case occured. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

Then-Land and Co-operative Development Minister Tan Sri Kasitah Gaddam was charged in the Sessions Court with corrupt practice and cheating on February 2004, 5 years before Teoh’s case occured. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

Can i ask why they need a coroner from Thailand?

Why not just get a local coroner from the University of Malaya or something?

At the top level, malaysian doctors are actually quite good.

Han Solo

The first autopsy were done by patology experts Dr. N. Prashant from Pusat Perubatan Universiti Malaya (PPUM) and from Dr. Khairul Azman Ibrahim from Hospital Tengku Ampuan Rahimah (HTAR). However, their autopsy report was not accepted by PR and his family, as they said those doctors were pressured by the authority. They insisted on second autopsy, conducted or supervised by a doctor of their choosing. The MACC countered with their own expert, Dr Venezis.

These are the two doctors finding on the first autopsy.

On why he believed Teoh had deliberately thrown himself off the building, Dr Prashant gave about nine reasons, which included the absence of defense wounds and signs that Teoh had been restrained.

There was also no sign of asphyxiation, for example pressure on the neck which could cause scratch or pressure abrasions on the neck.

There was no evidence of tongue bite or any injury to the tongue which could occur in case of a struggle, he said.

On the marks and damage on Teoh’s right shoe, that counsels holding a watching brief for the deceaseds family and the Selangor government, had suggested were drag marks, Dr Prashant said the marks were consistent with a fall from a high place.

He added the damage and marks on Teoh’s right shoe could be due to the shoe carrying his 70kg weight while he plunged at a high velocity resulting in friction with floor surface upon impact.

Their report was verified by the second autopsy. even Dr Pornthip agreed that there were no signs that Teoh was beaten or tortured before death as suggested by Gobind Singh Deo, Teoh family's counsel.

[kidd]

Actually, before this particular case happens, there were alot of BN leaders that got prosecuted by the BPR/MACC. However, those cases were never mentioned in the oppositions media.

The former Mentri Besar of Selangor, Khir Toyo was investigated by the MACC quite a few times during his tenure of office.

Four high-ranking officials of Ministry of Tourism was detained by MACC’s during April 2009, three month before Teoh’s case occured. Amongst them is the then-Minister’s aide. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

Datuk Shariff Jajang, then-Selangor Executive Councillor was prosecuted in 2005, 4 years before Teoh’s case occured. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

Then-Land and Co-operative Development Minister Tan Sri Kasitah Gaddam was charged in the Sessions Court with corrupt practice and cheating on February 2004, 5 years before Teoh’s case occured. So, how can you said only after that incident MACC started investigating both sides?

I was talking about the cow case.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the 2004 and 2005 cases.

[Ace High]

I was talking about the cow case.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the 2004 and 2005 cases.

Let's say you are a director for two different companies. You use Company A's capital to fund Company B's projects, but Company A will not get a single cent back from Company B's projects.

[Ace High]

It's probably a bad idea to ask Malaysians for a neutral view on the matter, really. Our ruling party has worked itself into a position where you're either with them or against them, and it's quite difficult to look at them objectively anymore - you either support them or dislike them, and it's obvious in these posts who is who. Getting both points of view and trying to arrive at a balanced position is also more likely to stoke unpleasant argument way before any real conclusion remotely close to the truth is arrived at.

Nah, I've disagreed quite a lot UMNO/BN's decisions before and will continue to do so in matters that I felt wrong. I have supported some PR's decisions in matters I think is right. I despise quite a number of BN leaders and PR leaders.

I'm someone who read Harakah and Suara Keadilan while also reading Utusan Malaysia and Berita Harian.

I've been following this case with attention, listening to both side's arguments before making my own opinion.

[kidd]

Let's say you are a director for two different companies. You use Company A's capital to fund Company B's projects, but Company A will not get a single cent back from Company B's projects.

Ok, ok. I get it. I'm sorry. I'm wrong about MACC. MACC has always been fair, just and independent.

I've already said thanks for the info of the case 2005 and before (showing that MACC did investigate ruling party before the cow incident). I didn't argue about that. I didn't say I distrust your evidence. I just want to clarify that the 'this case' in 'It's only after this case that MACC started investigating both sides.' means the cow case not the Teoh Beng Hock's case which happen later (which you keep referring to in that post while questioning me). I was just clarifying a minute detail.