Prominent CPC critic gives up.

[Dirt]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36225662...s-asiapacific/

Yay, PRC? He got what he deserved?

[Guo Xiang]

I suppose you got frustrated with the debate in the baby waste topic and has set yourself on a crusade now.

[Dirt]

I'm sad that people in the PRC don't have the same rights as me. I do admit to not understanding why others wouldn't want the same thing for the citizens of China, why they support such oppression.

[pemberly]

I'm sad that people in the PRC don't have the same rights as me. I do admit to not understanding why others wouldn't want the same thing for the citizens of China, why they support such oppression.

that's like an evangelist missionary not understanding why people don't want to convert, be baptized and "saved." your ideas of rights and oppression might not be the same as others, and you are not helping your argument by stubbornly adhering to your opinions without considering others' opinions. sometimes it's just best to agree to disagree. you cannot force your "ideal government" and rights onto others if that's not what they want, ie bush in iraq.

[Dirt]

I know that the people who are oppressed in China agre with me. I'm guessing that you, an American doesn't experience much oppression personally. You're very lucky.

[pemberly]

I know that the people who are oppressed in China agre with me. I'm guessing that you, an American doesn't experience much oppression personally. You're very lucky.

yes, i'm sure all 1.3 billion agree with you, and that's why only a handful have tried to do anything about it.

[Guo Xiang]

yes, i'm sure all 1.3 billion agree with you, and that's why only a handful have tried to do anything about it.

And in the same breath calls them "uncivilised".

[PJ]

Dirt, just curious, have you ever been to China and experienced its "oppression?"

[Dirt]

If it was left up to the majority to determine what oppression is, then pemberley, Guo Xiang and I would all still be second class American citizens.

[ByTmE]

I'm not sure what's going on here folks. What I do know is that citizens of the PRC are much smarter than some of us are giving them credit for. I have relatives in China who are quite aware that they do not have the same "liberties" that I do as an American. Then there are others who don't believe they are oppressed at all, and explain differing beliefs in lifestyle as cultural differences. However, they are ALL very very proud to be Chinese living in China. Some even suggested that I stay there with them and settle down with a nice down home Chinese boy.

Point is, even if one group does not agree with the thoughts of a second group, the former should not dictate their beliefs on the latter. I think this is what everyone has been reiterating.

[Dirt]

Dirt, just curious, have you ever been to China and experienced its "oppression?"

I don't have to. Gao Zhisheng has experienced it for me. I witnessed with my own eyes as a teenager what was happening in Tiananmen Square in 1989. I can imagine what it would be like if the United States government told me whom I can or cannot openly worship.

I can tell that China has improved because 20, 30 years ago, we would have never heard from someone like Gao Zhisheng again once he was arrested. But it's still not good enough.

I imagine you're all very young. I'm 36. I remember the United States of the late 70's and 80's. The USA has changed quite a bit. Whether race or sexuality, our government has given us more and more ability to choose how we live our lives (though gays still can't marry, but I think that's going to happen in the next 10 to 15 years), the way we want to worship, the way we identify ourselves, the way we can change our government to suit the way we want to live. I wish the same, not only for the China, but for the world. And the only way China will continue to change is if everybody does their part to demand it.

[Dirt]

Point is, even if one group does not agree with the thoughts of a second group, the former should not dictate their beliefs on the latter. I think this is what everyone has been reiterating.

The PRC is doing exactly this to the Tibetans and the Uighers. Those 2 groups should have the freedom to worship whomever they want openly and however they want to identify themselves.

[PJ]

Maybe people in China aren't demanding change like you want them to because--oh, I don't know--many of them aren't as oppressed as you, someone who has never experienced China, imagine?

Just a thought.

[ByTmE]

The PRC is doing exactly this to the Tibetans and the Uighers. Those 2 groups should have the freedom to worship whomever they want openly and however they want to identify themselves.

...I didn't think any of us were/are agreeing with the PRC's actions. We're disagreeing with your reaction, solely for it's lack of tact. I'm sorry, I meant myself only. I wouldn't want to speak for the others.

[Dirt]

Maybe people in China aren't demanding change like you want them to because--oh, I don't know--many of them aren't as oppressed as you, someone who has never experienced China, imagine?

Just a thought.

Like I said:

If the majority determined whether the minority were oppressed, you and I would be 2nd Class American Citizens.

Think about it.

[pemberly]

Like I said:

If the majority determined whether the minority were oppressed, you and I would be 2nd Class American Citizens.

Think about it.

so are you advocating rights and freedoms equivalent to those enjoyed in the US to all people in China or just to the Uighurs and other minority groups?

If just to the Uighurs et al, why should they have more rights than the common Chinese person?

If to the Chinese citizenry in general, there's a difference in comparing their situation to that of Americans in the past (i'm assuming you mean civil liberties).

In the US, that was a question of giving a minority of people the rights already enjoyed by the majority. There was no change in the rights for the majority.

In China, what you seem to be advocating is changing the entire structure of the government for the majority and minority; a change that has not been called for by most of the people seemingly just because you and a small and different minority (not an ethnic group, but a group that feels that they are intellectually superior and worldly) feel that it is better. This would be an overhaul of the government and laws as a whole, and upending lives, established norms and business practices for 1.3 billion people for a change that most people do not want.

[Dirt]

Uyghers already have separate rights from Han. A Uygher can practically kill a Han, get sent back to their village and get off scot free.

I advocate freedom of speech and freedom of religion for all. Equally. And this was called for in 1989 and the PRC militarily oppressed it. Have you forgotten that already? It was only 20 years ago.

[pemberly]

Uyghers already have separate rights from Han. A Uygher can practically kill a Han, get sent back to their village and get off scot free.

i'm assuming you mean the incidents and trials in the news lately. I believe there were both Uighurs and Hans who were executed/jailed. This is an entirely different issue. Maybe you can start a thread on that because that should be a separate debate.

I advocate freedom of speech and freedom of religion for all. Equally. And this was called for in 1989 and the PRC militarily oppressed it. Have you forgotten that already? It was only 20 years ago.

haha, first off, i guess i'm younger than you think. secondly, i'm not saying having all these freedoms are bad. freedoms rock. but what i think many of us are trying to say is that if the majority of people in China do not want change, who are you, an outsider no less, to tell them to up-end their lives to change, for better or worse.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Uyghers already have separate rights from Han. A Uygher can practically kill a Han, get sent back to their village and get off scot free.

I advocate freedom of speech and freedom of religion for all. Equally. And this was called for in 1989 and the PRC militarily oppressed it. Have you forgotten that already? It was only 20 years ago.

Although the Tiananmen killings were certainly horrendous, keep in mind that there were roughly ~100k students at the protest, in a country of 1 billion...compared to, say, 2 million 'Tea Partiers' who went to DC to protest Obama. Tiananmen has acquired outsized importance primarily because of its symbolism, its wide broadcast, and because of the government response, which many academics feel to be due to the PRC governments lack of familiarity & shortage of crowd dispersion tools, such as tear gas and rubber bullets. But as far as an actual movement with widespread momentum & national support, it was more than a little lacking.

It's not that the average Chinese person wouldn't want more freedom; of course they would (and they'll tell you that). It's that the average Chinese person is not convinced that agitating for democracy & the end of one party rule et. al. would not necessarily result in a better overall situation for the country, when taking into consideration stability, economic growth, etc. Overall, they are happy with the way things are going. Why rock the boat and risk overturning it, when you are already headed in the right direction? This is especially true considering the decades of turmoil and instability China has undergone in the 20th century.

The biggest problem with you, Dirt, is that you, like so many, are an armchair critic, with no skin in the game. It's perfectly fine for you to theorize about agitating against and maybe overthrowing one party rule in China, because you don't have to worry about things going to hell if things don't go as you imagine (like Iraq) and instead take a turn for the worse. The Chinese people do, and so far, poll after reputable poll (national and international) have shown that the average Chinese person is much more optimistic about the future than the average American, and, despite not having the right to vote, more satisfied with his government. You, on the other hand, exaggerate how bad it is despite never having been there.

Maybe you should let them make the decision on what to push for, and how far to push, because if things go screwball, they are the ones who will suffer for it. Not you.

___________

Now to briefly turn to the article you posted, Gao Zhisheng is a damn good man, and I fully and strongly support him in his actions. It will be Chinese people like him who will help the development of rule of law in China, which is so critical to it ever becoming a society with good governance, regardless of whether it is one party or two.

[Dirt]

I'm from Taiwan. I have family there, including my parents. My skin, my blood, is very much in the game.

Do the international polls breakdown into regions or ethnic groups? What are the poll numbers like in Tibet? In Xinjiang? In Hong Kong? Macau?

If the PRC thinks it can tell Taiwan what it should or should not be or do, then I, as an ROC citizen, has the right to tell the PRC what it should go do with itself.