Ah Fei vs. Sai Mun Chui Sheut: does Ah Fei really have no chance?

[Ken Cheng]

Not very often, we've compared these two supremely fast and unconventional Gu Long swordsmen, but from what I recall, the consensus was that if Ah Fei from SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD dueled Sai Mun Chui Sheut from LUK SIU FUNG, Ah Fei would lose.

Are we certain about that? I guess that judgment comes from the fact that Ah Fei is a bit deficient in certain general martial arts skills such as inner power, acupoint sealing, and an actual hing gung technique, whereas Sai Mun Chui Sheut was a master of those arts as well as swordsmanship. However, in SSRS, Ah Fei proved many times that despite his lack of cultivation in certain aspects of martial arts, the swiftness of his sword could often overcome more "powerful" conventional martial artists.

Does Ah Fei really stand no chance?

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think so. I definitely don't see Ah Fei of that time period as being superior to, say, SGJH (who was superior to LXH of that time), but do you really see Shangguan Jinhong as capable of beating XMCX? I really don't.

Now, Ah Fei of Bordertown Wanderer, who was said to be tremendously improved compared to the Ah Fei of DQJKWQJ, would be a very, very deadly foe for anybody, imho...

[Ken Cheng]

I think so. I definitely don't see Ah Fei of that time period as being superior to, say, SGJH (who was superior to LXH of that time)

Definitely not superior, but also not someone that Seung Gwoon Gum Hung could simply dismiss. SGGH *was* nervous about the prospect of facing Lee Chum Foon and Ah Fei together...enough that he felt he needed Ging Mo Meng there to offset Ah Fei.

but do you really see Shangguan Jinhong as capable of beating XMCX? I really don't.

I was quite impressed by SGGH, so maybe. I see SGGH as inferior to SMCS in speed (maybe; anybody who could prevent LCF from casting his dagger can't be slow) and swordsmanship, but in all other departments, SGGH is no worse than equal to SMCS (if not better).

[Ren Wo Xing]

Here's the thing; in Bordertown Wanderers, Ah Fei and Jin Wuming appear to be at a nearly godlike level when compared to the protagonists (Ye Kai, FHX, etc.) of that time, but Ah Fei himself says that the protagonists are not at all inferior to themselves (Ah Fei/Li Xunhuan) in their youth.

If XMCX is 'only' at or slightly above SGJH level (during the events of Little Li's Flying Dagger), then the Ah Fei and Jin Wuming of Bordertown Wanderer would eat him alive. I just don't see that happening, from the feel & the way they were presented.

[CC]

Here's the thing; in Bordertown Wanderers, Ah Fei and Jin Wuming appear to be at a nearly godlike level when compared to the protagonists (Ye Kai, FHX, etc.) of that time, but Ah Fei himself says that the protagonists are not at all inferior to themselves (Ah Fei/Li Xunhuan) in their youth.

If XMCX is 'only' at or slightly above SGJH level (during the events of Little Li's Flying Dagger), then the Ah Fei and Jin Wuming of Bordertown Wanderer would eat him alive. I just don't see that happening, from the feel & the way they were presented.

I get your point but then again, did you also get the feeling that if SGJH were to fight Ah Fei in the 1st novel, Ah Fei would be toast in 1-2 stances?

And besides, it did seem that SMCX improved quite a bit over the 5 LXF books too.

As for the 'odd feeling' of having Bordertown Ah Fei eat SMXC alive, it would also feel odd that Bordertown Era Ah Fei/JWM would be able to 'eat' Dagger Li era SGJH alive.

[bliss]

IMO, Shangguan was pretty formidable and probably shouldn't be inferior to XMCX. Remember, in the context of SSRS, he wasn't really inferior to LXH. He simply lost due to hero plot device. And even in Bordertown, Jing Wuming admitted SGJH was way above LXH in terms of martial arts. And if we cross compare, I'd have to say I place LXH over LXF (and consequently XMCX) ...

[bliss]

A few clarifications:

1. Based on the fact that Ximen Chuixue didn't reach the formless/swordless stage until much later in the Lu Xiaofeng series, compared to Li Xunhuan and Shangguan Jinhong who both claimed to have reached those levels prior to the start of SSRS, I'd assume that LXH/SGJH are stronger than XMCX/LXF. That's the general feel of the novels as well, LXH/SGJH were relatively peerless in their eras while LXF/XMCX had many peers at or around their level and were outclassed several times as well.

2. When Ah Fei was comparing the younger generation in Bordertown (Ye Kai and Fu Hongxue) he probably meant as compared to when he and Jing Wuming were younger. Ah Fei and JWM were still one or maybe two levels behind LXF/SGJH during SSRS. If I'd have to guess, the Ah Fei and Jing Wuming in Bordertown should be at the levels that LXH and SGJH were at in SSRS ... they simply appeared godly because no one around their level/generation were around. In much the same way, Ye Kai and Fu Hongxue were pretty godly in Tianya one generation later.

Anyways, comments are welcome. Feel free to disagree, just my opinions!

[Ken Cheng]

Now that I've refreshed my memory on some of Ah Fei's battles mid-SSRS, I pretty much agree that young Ah Fei really would have no chance against Sai Mun Chui Sheut.

While trying to rescue Lee Chum Foon after the latter had been framed as the Plum Blossom Bandit, Ah Fei fought characters such as Chiu Jing Ngor, Tien 7, and the Shaolin monk Sum Mei. Although he did pretty impressively against these guys one-on-one, they overwhelmed him as a group. Clearly, Sum Mei's inner power gave Ah Fei trouble.

I don't see these guys giving Sai Mun Chui Sheut any problems, whether they go against him one-on-one or as a group.

Additionally, Mr. Iron Flute was able to catch Ah Fei off-guard...something I also don't see happening to Sai Mun Chui Sheut

[minutemanwayne]

I've only read up to book 4 of LXF, and from my opinion the way Ah Fei broke Lu Xiaojia's sword was much more impressive than turning a guys sword around and peircing his own belly with it. All that formless mojo doesn't mean jack in Gu Long universe. Look at Old Man Sun preaching all that Zen stuff, about how the highest level of martial arts is when oneself reaches nothing. In the end he got killed by SGJH. I like XMCX. I just don't like the fact that he left his wife and child to go train with the sword. Ah Fei was a true hero and in that regards, righteousness always prevails over evil. If XMCX tried to sword that "overcoming sword without sword' move on Ah Fei, he'd find the end of that short stick in his throat

[minutemanwayne]

Also note that Li Xunhuan thought that in 3 years time if Ah Fei covered the flaws in his swordplay, he'd be invincible

[Ken Cheng]

Ah Fei by the time of BORDERTOWN WANDERER and beyond should be able to take on Sai Mun Chui Sheut (although who would actually win is up for grabs), but during the time of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD...no way. In SSRS, Ah Fei struggled against and was beaten by several opponents whom I'm pretty sure that Sai Mun Chui Sheut, even in the early LUK SIU FUNG stories during which he had not attained his peak, would not be at all threatened by.

During SSRS, Ah Fei was wounded or struggled terribly against monk Sum Mei, Tin 7, Mr. Iron Flute, Green Demon Hands Yi Huk, and various others. I don't see any of these characters troubling Sai Mun Chui Sheut at all.

[CC]

Ah Fei by the time of BORDERTOWN WANDERER and beyond should be able to take on Sai Mun Chui Sheut (although who would actually win is up for grabs), but during the time of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD...no way. In SSRS, Ah Fei struggled against and was beaten by several opponents whom I'm pretty sure that Sai Mun Chui Sheut, even in the early LUK SIU FUNG stories during which he had not attained his peak, would not be at all threatened by.

During SSRS, Ah Fei was wounded or struggled terribly against monk Sum Mei, Tin 7, Mr. Iron Flute, Green Demon Hands Yi Huk, and various others. I don't see any of these characters troubling Sai Mun Chui Sheut at all.

Well, Ah Fei was like 17 at the time of first appearance while SMCX was already a world famous established swordsman (how old is he anyway?).

For SMCX to be defeated by a 17yr old with a rotted metal piece is pretty embarassing.

In any case, due to GL's Dagger Li hype, I would think part of it rubs off on Ah Fei so if its mature Ah Fei, I would bet on him against SMCX.

[minutemanwayne]

He fought against a Luohan formation, and could of escaped but was cheap shotted in the back by a palm from Reverend XinMei and suffered internal injuries. He later went to take on Mr. Iron Flute. The latter gave Ah Fei 3 stances due to his injury, but lost and would of died if Ah Fei didn't spare him. Then he was cheap shotted in the leg by needles again by Iron Flute. By the time he fought Yi Ku he was already recovering from his injuries and was starting to get mind toyed by Lin Xianger, hence he got his sword broken and yet he still managed to kill Yi Ku after 10 stances. Yi Ku was also ranked in The Book of Weapons. At the end of the book, Ah Fei seemed to have improved again, using only a bamboo as a sword he stormed Shangguan Jinhong's manor. Of all the first rate martial artists there, nobody was able to stop him. Whoever did found themselves with a bamboo sword stuck in their throat. Honestly, who has XiMen ChuiXue killed that were better than the fighters Ah Fei killed? Hong Tao? Su ShaoYing? XMCX would of died under Dugu Yihe and Yip Gucheng's hands if it weren't for several circumstances which caused the fighters to fight at less than their peak.

[minutemanwayne]

In any case, due to GL's Dagger Li hype, I would think part of it rubs off on Ah Fei so if its mature Ah Fei, I would bet on him against SMCX.

From the way Ah Fei spoke in Bordertown Wanderer, he seems to be exactly like Li Xunhuan having inherited his righteousness and showing forgiveness towards others. Ye Kai respected him greatly while Fu Hongxue and Lu Xiaojia feared him. And these kids didn't fear anyone else.

[PJ]

In any case, due to GL's Dagger Li hype, I would think part of it rubs off on Ah Fei so if its mature Ah Fei, I would bet on him against SMCX.

I got the feeling that Gu Long in his mind also loved Ximen Chuixue. (Not as much as he loved Little Li). So maybe Ah Fei doesn't have an advantage in the "author fanboyism" department.

[BlackRaven]

In xmcx's first appearance in lu xiao feng book 1, he was a very good fighter but FAR from invincible.

As I recall the leader of Emei would have beaten xmxc in a fair duel, emei master only lost because he already spent most of his inner power in a duel right before fighting xmcx. And perhaps the richest man in the world huo xiu and LXF could have beaten xmcx too at that stage of the story.

Whereas sgjh during his first appearance was definitely the strongest fighter of his era. Even sgjh's student jin wuming, using only his slower left hand was equal or better than #4 and below weapon list fighters, and far above famous school leaders from shaolin, dian can.

sgjh also killed old man sun and was confident enough to fight little li on the same day. sgjh could have killed little li for sure if they fought during his brotherhood ceremony with long xiaoyun.

so sgjh is certainly better than xmcx from lxf book 1, and also lxf book 3. i havent read the other lxf books though.

i like bordertown wanderer story but i am kinda miffed about jing wuming saying that ye kai was #1 because he fights to protect others, what a load of bs. also jwm having super doctor skills to "resurrect" his student was pretty out of character. the young badass jin wuming would have called the old one a phony.

[Ken Cheng]

Revisiting this topic after nearly a decade, even if SSRS-era Ah Fei ultimately loses against Sai Mun Chui Sheut, how long do you think Ah Fei can last before succumbing, and would he manage to wound SMCS?

[CC]

Revisiting this topic after nearly a decade, even if SSRS-era Ah Fei ultimately loses against Sai Mun Chui Sheut, how long do you think Ah Fei can last before succumbing, and would he manage to wound SMCS?

19 chapters of buildup. in the 20th chapter, they meet at high noon for the fight and XMCX asks AF if he has confidence in winning. AF doesn't answer.

LXH who is watching chimes in and says some GL mumbo like "Different people measure winning in different ways'.

XMCX takes a long pause and finally says : If I draw my sword now, I will surely lose.

XMCX turns and walks away.

Novel readers in 2020 argue that what XMCX really meant was that after thinking about what LXH said, by killing Ah Fei before AF perfects and corrects his swordplay flaws, XMCX is defeating himself only.