Which characters would reach Great level martial arts...

[chibidaisuke]

so ur sayin hys, beggar, oyf cant defeat GWK befer and after 16yr time skip? fail.

I'm not sure whether they can defeat GWM or not. But it does kinda seem that GWM has an edge over all of them in internal energy.

[tape]

Yang Guo with HIS *MIGHT* be better than Guo Jing. But the fact that he has to rely on a big-*** weapon to win doesn't make his case look too hot. Real Men (TM) don't need that.

Don't really see a problem with it, as he didn't get 9 Yin or those other super elite skills handed to him either. We never question if YG would be >> GJ if given full 9 Yin, Dragon Palms, Mighty Snap, etc so why do we always have to go into hypotheticals of if other Greats get YG's signature move?

I realize one is a physical sword while the other is a kungfu manual, but at the end of the day they are both just Extremely Overpowered Plot Buffs.

[hoatran]

The reason I normally don't get into the Kungfu discussions because 1) Jin Yong has indicated that the Kungfu are not realistic. So they are mostly means to set up the stories, not a good indication to say who is better, who is worse, especially when people are separated by generations. But as these discussions get heated, I'll wander in a bit and give my 2 cents.

Guo Jing: at the 1st heroes meeting, Jin Yong seemed to give us the impression that Guo Jing might be at the same level, or even a little inferior of the GWM. But then later, at the Mongolian camp, Guo Jing fought against not only GWM, but the other 4 experts as well, and he did fine. So was he inferior or better than GWM pre 16 years??? Let's say he was better.

Yang Guo with HIS pre 16 years: After taking snake biles and practice sword play in water falls, at Quanzhen sect, in the battle with GWM, we can't be sure Yang Guo was winning or losing against GWM. They were planning different strategies. Not sure which one would prevail. Then XLN woke up, threw the poison needle at GWM, causing him to lose the battle. But here GWM was fighting with all his power where as Yang Guo was fighting standing still, holding and protecting XLN. Later on, Yang Guo was fighting Ci'en even hand, then got lucky, the snow got into Ci'en's eyes, gave Yang Guo the win. So at this point how was he compare with Guo Jing? About the same or a little inferior?

XLN pre 16 years: With two hands, she was able to defeat the GWM. But Jin Yong said that she was lucky because GWM was competing speed with XLN, thus using his not so strong skill against XLN's strong suit.

Jin Yong also implied that in Kungfu, you can try to use the skills to compete, but the ones with the greatest internal strength will prevail if he/she ultilize that asset. For example, at the 1st heroes meeting, when the GWM deciple, Da'erba used his "Supreme Strength Rod Technique", not much Yang Guo could do until he used the hypnotic technique. Jin Yong also used the battle between Hong Gigong and Ouyang Feng to say that at a certain kungfu level where two compatants have very high level of internal strength, and very good techniques, then they can't defeat each other with techniques, only internal strength. After the 16 years, Yang Guo was sparing with Zhou Botong, neither could do anything to the other, and Yang Guo said the only way to see who is better was to compete using internal strength, which would lead to severe injuries and death like what happened to Hong Gigong and Ouyang Feng.

So during the 16 years, what was everyone doing? They all continue to practice their martial skills. But one who stood out was Yang Guo who practiced it either in the water falls, or in the ocean surfs. Either way, his way of practice was supposed to advance his internal energies a lot more.

After 16 years, Zhou Botong could not defeat GWM by himself. GWM was fighting against 2 greats: Zhou Botong and Yideng, and he was doing OK. Not until Huang Yaoshi arrived that he gave up.

When Yang Guo was with Yideng, Yideng was atonished at Yang Guo display of raw internal energiey. When Yang Guo was with Huang Yaoshi, it was implied that Yang Guo was at that time was better than Huang Yaoshi and Huang Yaoshi was comparing his power to Guo Jing.

Then finally at the Xiang Jiang, Yang Guo was able to defeat GWM with his Sad Palms. But remember, the Sad Palms technique was just all internal energies. Because Yang Guo lost an arm, thus if just compete on techniques, he would be at a disadvantage. So he developed the Sad Palms where he would use everything in his body to attack, and pretty much trying to get the opponent into an internal energy competition where the skills don't matter anymore. This is the reason my Jin Yong said Yang Guo did not want to use the rest of his 13 Sad Palms stances with Zhou Botong.

In conclusion, after the 16 years, if Yang Guo compete with Guo Jing, it probably would come down to the Dragon Supdueing palms, and Sad palms, and finally the internal energy competition. Whose is stronger? The fifty some years old Guo Jing, or the 36 years old Yang Guo with plenty of snake biles and practice in the water falls/surfs?

I don't know who would be better, but Yang Guo seem to be quite formidable to me. If not better than Guo Jing, then probably not worse.

And why did Yang Guo had to be sad in order for his Sad Palms to be most effective? Probably because when he was sad, his sadness and anger would cause him to focus hs energy?

[Exodus]

The reason I normally don't get into the Kungfu discussions because 1) Jin Yong has indicated that the Kungfu are not realistic. So they are mostly means to set up the stories, not a good indication to say who is better, who is worse, especially when people are separated by generations. But as these discussions get heated, I'll wander in a bit and give my 2 cents.

Guo Jing: at the 1st heroes meeting, Jin Yong seemed to give us the impression that Guo Jing might be at the same level, or even a little inferior of the GWM. But then later, at the Mongolian camp, Guo Jing fought against not only GWM, but the other 4 experts as well, and he did fine. So was he inferior or better than GWM pre 16 years??? Let's say he was better.

Yang Guo with HIS pre 16 years: After taking snake biles and practice sword play in water falls, at Quanzhen sect, in the battle with GWM, we can't be sure Yang Guo was winning or losing against GWM. They were planning different strategies. Not sure which one would prevail. Then XLN woke up, threw the poison needle at GWM, causing him to lose the battle. But here GWM was fighting with all his power where as Yang Guo was fighting standing still, holding and protecting XLN. Later on, Yang Guo was fighting Ci'en even hand, then got lucky, the snow got into Ci'en's eyes, gave Yang Guo the win. So at this point how was he compare with Guo Jing? About the same or a little inferior?

XLN pre 16 years: With two hands, she was able to defeat the GWM. But Jin Yong said that she was lucky because GWM was competing speed with XLN, thus using his not so strong skill against XLN's strong suit.

Jin Yong also implied that in Kungfu, you can try to use the skills to compete, but the ones with the greatest internal strength will prevail if he/she ultilize that asset. For example, at the 1st heroes meeting, when the GWM deciple, Da'erba used his "Supreme Strength Rod Technique", not much Yang Guo could do until he used the hypnotic technique. Jin Yong also used the battle between Hong Gigong and Ouyang Feng to say that at a certain kungfu level where two compatants have very high level of internal strength, and very good techniques, then they can't defeat each other with techniques, only internal strength. After the 16 years, Yang Guo was sparing with Zhou Botong, neither could do anything to the other, and Yang Guo said the only way to see who is better was to compete using internal strength, which would lead to severe injuries and death like what happened to Hong Gigong and Ouyang Feng.

So during the 16 years, what was everyone doing? They all continue to practice their martial skills. But one who stood out was Yang Guo who practiced it either in the water falls, or in the ocean surfs. Either way, his way of practice was supposed to advance his internal energies a lot more.

After 16 years, Zhou Botong could not defeat GWM by himself. GWM was fighting against 2 greats: Zhou Botong and Yideng, and he was doing OK. Not until Huang Yaoshi arrived that he gave up.

When Yang Guo was with Yideng, Yideng was atonished at Yang Guo display of raw internal energiey. When Yang Guo was with Huang Yaoshi, it was implied that Yang Guo was at that time was better than Huang Yaoshi and Huang Yaoshi was comparing his power to Guo Jing.

Then finally at the Xiang Jiang, Yang Guo was able to defeat GWM with his Sad Palms. But remember, the Sad Palms technique was just all internal energies. Because Yang Guo lost an arm, thus if just compete on techniques, he would be at a disadvantage. So he developed the Sad Palms where he would use everything in his body to attack, and pretty much trying to get the opponent into an internal energy competition where the skills don't matter anymore. This is the reason my Jin Yong said Yang Guo did not want to use the rest of his 13 Sad Palms stances with Zhou Botong.

In conclusion, after the 16 years, if Yang Guo compete with Guo Jing, it probably would come down to the Dragon Supdueing palms, and Sad palms, and finally the internal energy competition. Whose is stronger? The fifty some years old Guo Jing, or the 36 years old Yang Guo with plenty of snake biles and practice in the water falls/surfs?

I don't know who would be better, but Yang Guo seem to be quite formidable to me. If not better than Guo Jing, then probably not worse.

And why did Yang Guo had to be sad in order for his Sad Palms to be most effective? Probably because when he was sad, his sadness and anger would cause him to focus hs energy?

A very good analysis

That's why I always think that by the end of ROCH YG was most likely the most powerful fighter that lived.

[Ken Cheng]

A very good analysis

That's why I always think that by the end of ROCH YG was most likely the most powerful fighter that lived.

I think I'll sum up my thoughts with this image and leave the thread. It summarizes everything I need to say without needing to waste more time or words.

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://vi.uh.edu/web/johnson_headdown_sm.jpg')

[chibidaisuke]

It's not about sides. It's about JY saying GJ would take hundreds/thousands of stances to decide a victory between him and GWM, while YG beat him in dozens.

That statement by JY was probably just to hype GWM up as a villain more than anything else. YG with HIS does not >>> GJ and other Greats and that I am almost certain.

[BlackRaven]

What is all this CRAP about GJ having to work hard? Sure he worked hard compared to us typing in front of a keyboard but for a fantasy wuxia character? Pfffttt!

When young, the 7 freaks trained him hard but he still had mummy around and Toulei, Huazheng and friends and some of the 7 freaks were really nice to him.

Ma Yu was never harsh with him.

After leaving Mongolia, he had HR for company and food. He got to travel around and see things. By the end of LOCH when he was only 20, he had it made with a good life.

Compare this to some poor Songshan welp who had to wake up at 4am, clean the toilet, train in the cold for 4 hours before breakfast, then do manual work for 4 hours, train another 4 hours before he gets 1 bowl of rice, then more work and training. Repeat this for 365 days a year and 30 years. And if he ever steals a glance at Headmaster's daughter, he would probably get flayed and his eye plucked out. And what happens after 30 years of that shyte!??! Some lucky bastid puts his sword in a surprising position and blinds you.

Pfffttt. Guo Jing had it EASY!

This post is hilarious while hitting the nail on the head lol

This is an old discussion but very interesting. After reading it I have to agree with:

I have used Rainman on several occasions as an example so I won't beat a dead horse. But let's look at Forrest Gump. Do you think others who are deemed as more "talented" than Forrest Gump can achieve what he has? Is it all due to luck, or is there some sort of special "talent" that comes with having a simple mind and a tendency for steadfast hard work.

You also have to remember that GJ went from completely inept at the 7 Freaks' martial arts to very proficient as soon as he learned QZ internal energy. It was something that GJ was extremely compatible with.

ZBT even commented that GJ was precisely the type for it and that WCY, had he been still alive, would have taught GJ everything indicating that GJ was built for QZ-style martial arts based on orthodox internal energy training.

Did Guo Jing have Great level talent? To me, the answer is a resounding yes.

Some people like Yang Guo have nearly all encompassing martial arts talent, allowing them to master nearly ANY Great level art, even as a first style, before having strong foundations.

But you only need to have great talent for ONE style of martial arts to achieve a high level.

I believe that Guo Jing has Great martial arts talent with an affinity for martial arts requiring a Zen like state of mind, such as Quan Zhen internal energy. (Yeah Quan Zhen is taoist, but the single-mind concentration requirement is similar to Zen meditation.)

Achieving a single-minded state while practicing Zen meditation is very difficult. Guo Jing could achieve something similar because of his unusually great concentration, only a minority of martial arts practitioners can master Quanzhen style as well as he did.

Put Guo Jing at the Shaolin Temple as a child, and I think he would master Shaolin martial arts well enough to become the abbot. But if the Huashan Sword faction took Guo Jing in, he would not have become an outstanding fighter.

To the main question: Which characters would reach great level martial arts if they were taught all the martial arts that Guo Jing had access to? I think some characters would, but they are a minority.

Guo Jing had access to the following Great level martial arts: HL 18 Palms, Quanzhen internal, L/R technique, Vacant Fist, 1 Yang Zhi, 9 Yin.

In addition, Guo Jing had access to first hand training from the following teachers: Hong Qigong, Yideng, Zhou Botong.

Any person that has a supreme talent and special affinity for just ONE of those martial arts could reach Great level. He can master that one art first, then after having a strong foundation, he can learn the other arts too if he wants to. Not everyone can do this of course, few have the special kind of talent to master even one martial art.

Even a superb fighter like Ding Chunqiu wouldn't become a Great if placed in Guo Jing's place. Ding studied for decades, yet he couldn't master even the first volume of Xiao Wu Xiang Gong, the 3rd strongest Xiao Yao inner power after Beiming and the other one practiced by TianShan TongLao. A true martial arts genius like JiuMozhi mastered all remaining volumes 2-8 of XWXG in 3 years, despite missing the first volume.

I don't think Murong Fu can become a great level fighter in Guo Jing's place either, despite Fu being a very good talent in his own right. I can't see him mastering Quanzhen internal or 9 Yin internal as well as Guo Jing did. Of course, a ton of above average fighters like the Wu brothers would fail to achieve Great level. I doubt Yin Yewang, a strong fighter from HSDS, could reach Great level either.

Linghu Chong definitely can, I think Xiang Wentian could too.

[PJ]

I actually think a number of non-protagonists would reach Great level. What's required of them is strong work ethic. What they get in return is APL: Amazing Protagonist Luck, including finding the right MA and teacher that best suit them.

Examples: Zhang Cuishan, Murong Fu, Yelu Qi, Reverend Shenshan, Duan Yanqing, Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, Xie Xun, Qiu Chuji.

[tape]

I think when I created the thread the point I unsuccessfully tried to convey was that Guo Jing's strong work ethic and attitude allowed him to succeed, but those weren't the reasons why he actually succeeded. Without his ethic and attitude, he had absolutely 0% chance of succeeding, whereas with it he stumbled upon the 10% chance occurrences where the end result was success.

Other characters might have a 20% chance of stumbling upon occurrences but got unlucky in the luck department, and some like Xiao Feng might have even higher, and of course, some lower.

Guo Jing's character put himself into a position to succeed no matter how low, and I guess that's the takeaway to get from his character. At the least, try, even with minimal resources.

[BlackRaven]

I actually think a number of non-protagonists would reach Great level. What's required of them is strong work ethic. What they get in return is APL: Amazing Protagonist Luck, including finding the right MA and teacher that best suit them.

Examples: Zhang Cuishan, Murong Fu, Yelu Qi, Reverend Shenshan, Duan Yanqing, Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, Xie Xun, Qiu Chuji.

Murong Fu had access to one of the best martial arts library in history. Furthermore, he had a genius like Wang Yuyan explaining the intricacies of each skill to him. I think he is a good talent, but not Great material.

I agree that Duan Yanqing might be able to reach Great level.

Zhang Cuishan... maybe.

Cuishan was brought up by Zhang Sanfeng since he was 10. He had one of the best teachers one could hope for. While Cuishan was very good, I feel he never displayed the same potential as Wuji or Yang Guo did at an earlier age. I think he missed a golden opportunity to improve by leaps and bounds during the 10 years on Ice/Fire Island. It was said that the extreme climate there allowed Xie Xun to greatly improve his internal energy. Cuishan could have used that chance to surpass his martial brothers at least in the internal power department, but he fell behind them.

Zhang Sanfeng did say that if he personally taught Taiji sword to Cuishan for 3 years, he would master it, so I can accept that Cuishan has the potential to reach Great level.

Yu Daiyan said：“Your disciple is stupid. I can only understand 30-40 percent. But I have memorized each stance and all the theory.” Zhang Sanfeng said：“It is difficult for you. If Lianzhou were here he would be able to understand about 50 percent. Ai, your fifth brother's comprehension was the greatest. It's a pity he died young. If I had 3 years to teach him, I would be able to pass my legacy on.”

[tape]

Murong Fu had access to one of the best martial arts library in history. Furthermore, he had a genius like Wang Yuyan explaining the intricacies of each skill to him. I think he is a good talent, but not Great material.

I agree that Duan Yanqing might be able to reach Great level.

Zhang Cuishan... maybe.

Cuishan was brought up by Zhang Sanfeng since he was 10. He had one of the best teachers one could hope for. While Cuishan was very good, I feel he never displayed the same potential as Wuji or Yang Guo did at an earlier age. I think he missed a golden opportunity to improve by leaps and bounds during the 10 years on Ice/Fire Island. It was said that the extreme climate there allowed Xie Xun to greatly improve his internal energy. Cuishan could have used that chance to surpass his martial brothers at least in the internal power department, but he fell behind them.

Zhang Sanfeng did say that if he personally taught Taiji sword to Cuishan for 3 years, he would master it, so I can accept that Cuishan has the potential to reach Great level.

Besides martial arts access, Guo Jing had a bunch of things working for him. He got to watch Greats fight constantly, which increased his understand of martial arts in general exponentially. I think this is very, very underrated. In any sport, game, or skill based activity, all the books in the world are not as good as time with the greatest in the world instructing you. Visualization is simply not the same as watching the same thing unfolding before your eyes.

From how far anything remotely competitive that isn't purely physical based has evolved in recent years, it's very clear that seeing something in action is way more important. The internet allows you to watch anything and anyone in real time, and as such, the competitive level for anything that a large amount of people care about is raised greatly.

[Ken Cheng]

Besides martial arts access, Guo Jing had a bunch of things working for him. He got to watch Greats fight constantly, which increased his understand of martial arts in general exponentially. I think this is very, very underrated. In any sport, game, or skill based activity, all the books in the world are not as good as time with the greatest in the world instructing you. Visualization is simply not the same as watching the same thing unfolding before your eyes.

From how far anything remotely competitive that isn't purely physical based has evolved in recent years, it's very clear that seeing something in action is way more important. The internet allows you to watch anything and anyone in real time, and as such, the competitive level for anything that a large amount of people care about is raised greatly.

It's fascinating how much Gwok Jing got out of just observing the Greats in action. Over the years, a number of people have observed the Greats in action, but none ever got as much as Gwok Jing did out of simply observing.

[tape]

It's fascinating how much Gwok Jing got out of just observing the Greats in action. Over the years, a number of people have observed the Greats in action, but none ever got as much as Gwok Jing did out of simply observing.

One of the reasons was because he had 9 Yin freshly taught to him by Zhou Botong. When he watched the fights, he pretty much had the theory in his mind, and then watched them perform it in real life.

As for people watching the Greats in action, I'm not sure that is a common occurence at all. They haven't seen each other since the Huashan tournament, so there were no Great level fights that anyone has witnessed. Maybe some people saw a Great dispatch someone every now and then, but it's hard to learn from a one hit KO compared to a prolonged fight. Yang Guo watched Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng duel, but that was about it. I do think that Guo Jing gained much more watching the fights than Yang Guo did though, despite Yang Guo's intelligence. I don't think his martial arts improved at all except by learning the Dog Beating Stick, which was due to the technique, and not overall martial arts comprehension.

[PJ]

Murong Fu had access to one of the best martial arts library in history. Furthermore, he had a genius like Wang Yuyan explaining the intricacies of each skill to him. I think he is a good talent, but not Great material.

I think he would have done better if he focused. Protagonistic luck would have ensured that.

I agree that Duan Yanqing might be able to reach Great level.

Yes. The novel implies his kung fu skills were perfected after he escaped from Dali. I think it's very impressive that he got to where he is on his own, and if he had better instructions, he would have been amazing.