Do you not like the way Granny Golden Flower/Dor Yee See got away with everything?

[Ken Cheng]

Granny Golden Flower/Purple-Robed Dragon King Dor Yee See committed many cruel and vicious acts during HSDS. She murdered Dr. Wu Ching Ngau and his wife. She critically injured her own adopted student, Chu-yee (Yan Lei), and killed dozens of other wulin people besides. For all that, however, in the end, she returned to Persia with her daughter Siu Chiu unscathed.

I don't like that ending for the character. She didn't answer for any of the things she did during HSDS, and even walked away looking pretty good (restored to a state of grace in the Persian Ming Cult).

HSDS, however, is particularly notorious for letting bad guys get away with evil.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah i agree, she gets away with lot of stuff in HSDS. What other bad guys got away with evil in HSDS?? Sing Kwun got pretty much what he deserved in the end and Zhou Zhirou kind of wised up near the end (although she did get away with murder as well).

Do you know if Granny Golden Flower and her daughter were persian? If they were persian, how did her daughter get mistaken for chinese?

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah i agree, she gets away with lot of stuff in HSDS. What other bad guys got away with evil in HSDS?? Sing Kwun got pretty much what he deserved in the end and Zhou Zhirou kind of wised up near the end (although she did get away with murder as well).

Do you know if Granny Golden Flower and her daughter were persian? If they were persian, how did her daughter get mistaken for chinese?

Chow Chi Yerk basically walked away unscathed for all she had done.

Chan Yau Leung got away scot free too, although Jin Yong couldn't punish him too harshly because Chan was a historical figure and he needed to stay alive and whole after the end of HSDS so that he could be defeated and killed by Chu Yeun Cheung, the future founding Ming Emperor.

Ding Mun Gwun of the Ngor Mei Sect didn't really suffer for the horrific things she did (including blinding one of Pang the Monk's eyes and essentially forcing Gei Hiu Fu's death).

Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo (Chiu Mun's father and brother) also got away unscathed although, like Chan Yau Leung, they had historical protection.

In HSDS '86 the Yeun Ming Elders walked away unscathed too...although I hear they got it much worse in the novel.

Even Sing Kwun's punishment was a bit light considering all the evil he had done.

If seeing villains in wuxia get their just deserts is important to you, then HSDS is definitely not your story.

[kidd]

Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo (Chiu Mun's father and brother) also got away unscathed although, like Chan Yau Leung, they had historical protection.

What bad things did these 2 does?

[Ken Cheng]

What bad things did these 2 does?

They were the prime movers of every Mongol attack on the wulin heroes beginning from at least the crippling of Yu Doi Nam near the beginning of the novel, and led the effort to wipe out the Ming Cult and orthodox wulin sects at Shaolin towards its end. They provided the support for Sing Kwun's dirty work throughout the story, and a number of Sing Kwun's acts were done on their behalf.

[leorio]

All these villains getting away with light punishment is in accordance with Wuji's tenet of forgiveness, thus the theme of the novel? Yeah, lame, I know. That's all I can think of.

[kyss of the sword]

daiqis was half persian half chinese. her daughter was a quarter persian and 3 quarter chinese.

there many who got away with their sins unpunished, xie xun also. there were several ming cultist who did bad things, ZZR also did some bad things. forgivness was a big theme.

[pannonian]

Chow Chi Yerk basically walked away unscathed for all she had done.

The sequence of events at the end is a bit confused, but IIRC it goes like this.

1. Zhou Zhiruo is attacked by the Xuan Ming elders, and she barely holds them off until Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min arrive at the scene.
2. While Zhang Wuji is fighting off the Xuan Ming elders, Zhou Zhiruo is freezing cold, either from Xuan Ming poison, misapplied 9 yin, or a combo. Zhao Min tries to help relieve this cold.
3. After Zhang Wuji beats the Xuan Ming elders, he sees that both Zhou Zhiruo and Zhao Min are freezing cold, and he channels his internal to cure them.
4. It turns out that Zhou Zhiruo had used Zhao Min to fill her with cold energy, and she takes advantage of the indisposed Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min and uses 9 yin claws to strike Zhao Min's head.
5. The 9 yang energy going through Zhao Min reacts with her strike, breaking her fingers. Zhou Zhiruo runs away.

Then follows some truly cringeworthy scenes with Zhou Zhiruo, Zhao Min and Yin Li. Every bit as bad as the worst of the 3rd edition Yang Guo-Xiao Longnu dialogue. HSDS 86 got it right by ignoring Jin Yong entirely, and rewriting the ending to what it should have been.

Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo (Chiu Mun's father and brother) also got away unscathed although, like Chan Yau Leung, they had historical protection.

They were antagonists, not villains. They were good people, but on the other side.

[kidd]

They were antagonists, not villains. They were good people, but on the other side.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. They were not evil. They were just serving different master/country/race. (各為其主).

[charbydis]

I got majorly pissed that Granny Golden Flower thought she had the right to go into Ming Sect and steal stuff, then get super angry at others for kicking her out when found out. What does she expect? A welcome party?

Hate the way she used her own daughter as a spy (very very dangerous in ming Sect) and nearly killed Yin Li. After all, Yin Li did spend a lot of time with her. She is so cold-hearted. And poor Fan Yao, why did he have to love such a woman?? At least Yang Xiao got Ji Xiao Fu's undying love. Fan Yao was treated like the invisible man. Poor handsome man.

I don't mind her returning to Persia, but at least let her feel remorseful and apologetic.

[Ken Cheng]

They were antagonists, not villains. They were good people, but on the other side.

I don't see how they were "good people;" everything that Sing Kwun, Ah Dai, Ah 2, Ah 3, and the Yeun Ming Elders did, they did at Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo's behest.

[Ken Cheng]

there many who got away with their sins unpunished, xie xun also.

Tse Tsun suffered enough, if in some cases only in retrospect.

1. Lost his entire family.

2. Blinded.

3. Severely injured his body by practicing 7 Seung Fists.

4. Endured many lonely years on Ice Fire Island.

5. Endured guilt for the death of the monk Hung Geen.

Most importantly, however, unlike the villains, Tse Tsun sincerely repented for his sins.

[Ken Cheng]

I got majorly pissed that Granny Golden Flower thought she had the right to go into Ming Sect and steal stuff, then get super angry at others for kicking her out when found out. What does she expect? A welcome party?

I've noticed that Jin Yong has a habit of creating characters who do this: they become very huffy and self-righteous even when (maybe even especially when) they are clearly in the wrong.

[kidd]

I've noticed that Jin Yong has a habit of creating characters who do this: they become very huffy and self-righteous even when (maybe even especially when) they are clearly in the wrong.

Aren't most people in the real world like that?

[Ken Cheng]

Aren't most people in the real world like that?

Not to the extent that wuxia characters are.

[flamer]

I don't see how they were "good people;" everything that Sing Kwun, Ah Dai, Ah 2, Ah 3, and the Yeun Ming Elders did, they did at Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo's behest.

Good people might be the wrong term but they were just working for the other side.

[tape]

I don't see how they were "good people;" everything that Sing Kwun, Ah Dai, Ah 2, Ah 3, and the Yeun Ming Elders did, they did at Chagan Temur and Wong Bo Bo's behest.

They weren't good people but they weren't bad people either. They most likely gave a very generic order to disrupt/conquer the chinese wulin community. The details of it he left to them and they chose the methods. As a warlord for such a powerful nation, you can't really expect any more than that in terms of being non-villainous.

[ByTmE]

I like Dai Qi Si. Not clear on why I do but I know I do.

I thought very highly of her union and love with Mr. Han. Well, she did give up being worshiped as a sacred virginal leader for him. Then she was hunted down for the next half of her life. Also, she gives up her beauty to go into hiding as a granny. Unfortunately, her husband dies. Sometime along the way, she was forced to give her daughter up for "adoption" to protect their secret identities. Maybe in her eyes this justified all of her cruelties? Personally, it sounds noble on paper ....

Ok, maybe I'm overlooking that she's a liar, poor mother, cruel teacher, and has very little sibling love.

She's a liar because she said she was not going to marry [and so rejects the handsome Fan Yao] but then proceeds to fall for that Mr. Han. FAIL

She's a poor mother since she sends Xiao Zhao to spy on the Ming sect knowing [1] they're not always nice [2] capricious in their kindness [3] not a good place for a little girl [4] it's your little girl lady...BESIDES, she was almost punished for breaking the rules when she held a highly regarded position and was well loved. How would of the Ming treated a poor lowly and handicapped ugly serving maid? EPIC FAIL

She's a cruel teacher since she nearly killed that poor child Zhu Er. I loved all of my students and couldn't bear to fail some of them, yet she is capable of killing a little girl?I can't remember that Yan Lei at all Ken mentioned. But, guess she did him no good either... why? FAIL

and what? She called Xie Xun "brother" all the time but treated him so terribly? AND he was blind and suffered through so many atrocities at the hands of...well it doesn't matter! Xie Xun actually seemed to like the little boogers [the girls] of the next generation while DQS couldn't care less for them...wth. FAIL I love kids. Even big ones.

And yet...I still like her In truth, I would have felt kind of bad if Dai Qi Si was punished but if it was Golden Flower Granny, I wouldn't feel so bad. Though Golden Flower Granny is the secret identity of Dai Qi Si, I like the latter and dislike the former. Maybe I hate ugly people? Just kidding. Maybe Jin Yong just didn't want to persecute the mother of his favorite female character?

[Ken Cheng]

I can't remember that Yan Lei at all Ken mentioned?

Yan Lei was Chu-yee's original name. She took the name "Chu-yee" only after Granny Golden Flower had adopted her (probably because of the 10,000 Poison Spiders Hand).

[ByTmE]

Yan Lei was Chu-yee's original name. She took the name "Chu-yee" only after Granny Golden Flower had adopted her (probably because of the 10,000 Poison Spiders Hand).

Oh I get it. This is Yin Li or Zhu Er. haha.