My reflections on Yeung Gor (by hoatran)

[Ken Cheng]

Why is it so important that he faces literal consequences for his actions/flaws (or lack thereof?) ?

Because he's dangerously deep into Mary Sue territory, and that's not a good place for a protagonist to be.

He is nowhere near a perfect character, and many people are turned off by his traits of arrogance, self centered-ness, and emotional shortcomings.

Those people have already seen the light and require no further guidance.

It's those who continue to blindly worship the character that I have misgivings about.

Does a character have to screw up big time in order to be a good character in terms of literature ?

The best ones do: Orestes, Oedipus, Hamlet, Othello, Brutus, John Proctor, Willy Loman...just to name a few.

Those who don't tend to be two-dimensional cartoon characters.

[tape]

Come to think of it, isn't Zhang Wuji written in much the same way? He loses battles, he makes dumb decisions, but it's because he's such a great guy and kind hearted. He breaks all girls' hearts, but the blame is never on him either. He is nice to all of them because he's a nice guy, and it's not his fault they all fell for him.

The reader rarely blames him for his actions, and there is always a good reason for why he does what he does. I fail to see the difference in how JY portrays ZWJ with how he portrays YG. The two are different characters so there are differences, but when is any blame placed on ZWJ for anything, and when are his flaws true flaws instead of the "I'm such a great and caring guy that I'm put into a lot of bad situations and let people take advantage of me" ?

[kidd]

Yep.

Kiu Fung, Deun Yu, Hui Juk, Gwok Jing, and Cheung Mo Gei were often very self-critical. Occasionally, they screwed up, and when they did...they owned up to it. Moreover, when these other heroes screwed up, convenient excuses were NOT set up to take the heat off of them. Kiu Fung *did* murder a doctor during childhood, and he *did* take Ah Chu's life in a moment of blind, misdirected rage. Gwok Jing *did* lead the military campaign that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Samarkandians, regardless of his intentions, and he *did* misjudge East Heretic Wong Yerk See and Wong Yung in the immediate aftermath of the Gong Nam 5 Freaks' murders on Peach Blossom Island. Cheung Mo Gei *did* muck up his relationships with four young women, causing all five of them to suffer to some degree.

The above doesn't count. I was just asking for acknowledgement by the heroes, not example of how they messed up.

These heroes made these (and other) mistakes, and they were acknowledged by the heroes themselves, by other characters in the story, and by reading/viewing audiences.

Cheung Mo Gei has an epiphany of how he ruined the girls' life (Yeung Gor actually has one such epiphany but, to you, it doesn't count)? What epiphany did Hui Juk has?
I don't remember Kwok Jing feeling really guilty about misjudging Wong Yerk See when all things were cleared. Maybe I watch a bad adaptation. But, when everything was cleared, Kwok Jing and Wong Yung just made up with nary an apology from Kwok Jing.

And lastly, I think for you, the bold section is the most important.

Btw, I do understand what you and Casere are trying to say, I just don't agree with it.

Come to think of it, isn't Zhang Wuji written in much the same way? He loses battles, he makes dumb decisions, but it's because he's such a great guy and kind hearted. He breaks all girls' hearts, but the blame is never on him either. He is nice to all of them because he's a nice guy, and it's not his fault they all fell for him.

The reader rarely blames him for his actions, and there is always a good reason for why he does what he does. I fail to see the difference in how JY portrays ZWJ with how he portrays YG. The two are different characters so there are differences, but when is any blame placed on ZWJ for anything, and when are his flaws true flaws instead of the "I'm such a great and caring guy that I'm put into a lot of bad situations and let people take advantage of me" ?

You point out a great point. It bores down to what value the readers have. If the reader has same value as ZWJ, then, he is blameless to that reader and the people who criticised him are the one who are unreasonable. But, if said reader has different value than ZWJ, that reader will fault ZWJ and think the people who defended him as blind to his fault. I guess the same can be applied to YG.

Why is it so important that he faces literal consequences for his actions/flaws (or lack thereof?) ?

He is nowhere near a perfect character, and many people are turned off by his traits of arrogance, self centered-ness, and emotional shortcomings. He is admittedly intelligent, but still much inferior to Huang Rong and nowhere near as composed or mature as even his peer Yelu Qi. He is not perfect nor portrayed to be. His flaws are evident.

Does a character have to screw up big time in order to be a good character in terms of literature ?

Because people who hate these flaws and actions would like to see some comeuppance. Just like how I wanted someone to take a peg or two down for Yuan Ziyi and no one did. That's why I remain angry with her for quite a long time.

[Ken Cheng]

Come to think of it, isn't Zhang Wuji written in much the same way? He loses battles, he makes dumb decisions, but it's because he's such a great guy and kind hearted. He breaks all girls' hearts, but the blame is never on him either. He is nice to all of them because he's a nice guy, and it's not his fault they all fell for him.

The reader rarely blames him for his actions, and there is always a good reason for why he does what he does. I fail to see the difference in how JY portrays ZWJ with how he portrays YG. The two are different characters so there are differences, but when is any blame placed on ZWJ for anything, and when are his flaws true flaws instead of the "I'm such a great and caring guy that I'm put into a lot of bad situations and let people take advantage of me" ?

Cheung Mo Gei has his share of detractors as well, but he comes away better than Yeung Gor because he has the humility to acknowledge his screw ups. Excuses aren't built into the story for him: when he screws up, it's on him and he knows and accepts it. Contrast that with Yeung Gor, who isn't one to acknowledge his screw ups and seems to always have some convenient "b*tch Gwok Fu," "cow-nosed Cheun Jen Taoists," or "mean old Auntie Gwok" to bear the blame for everything.

Therein lies the difference: Cheung Mo Gei (and other protagonists) are allowed to fall on their faces when they screw up, but Jin Yong always manages to rescue Yeung Gor from such embarrassment.

[Cesare]

You point out a great point. It bores down to what value the readers have.

Exactly. Like I said - different strokes for different folks.

YG of course *is* a friggin' Gary Stu (Gary Stus actually quite typically have some brooding, darker streak to them - kinda like Heathcliff or Rochester, but considerably smoother round the edges - I guess it's because lots of writers are intrigued by that type of character but they either fail to realize it's that roughness and sharpness round the edges that makes them intriguing - or they simply don't have the guts to include that rougher aspect) and XLN is totally a Mary Sue.
But it of course always boils down to likes and dislikes.

Does a character have to screw up big time in order to be a good character in terms of literature ?

Not necessarily. But if he or she screws up, it should be sufficiently acknowledged - or followed by adequate consequences. What is "sufficient" and "adequate" and what isn't of course pretty much depends on reader's bias either against the character in question or in the character's favor.
And this brings us back to...

You point out a great point. It bores down to what value the readers have.

So I'll conclude with
YG is a sum of traits, behavioral patterns and narrative/characterization strategies that I happen to find very, very irritating. So is XLN.
So FCUK them...

[hoatran]

Again...where is the fault assigned to Yeung Gor? Where is the character-building screw up that he needed to make to validate his character? Missing in action, as usual...the fault is (as always) reassigned to Gwok Jing and Ohr Jen Ngok for not telling him earlier.

The guy grew up before your eyes in some 40 chapters YJ wrote, but you did not want to see it. Started out with his desire to revenge against the QZ sect. He was told to forget about it. And he did. He started out as a flirt which resulted in some regrettable situations. He acknowledged that, then he wore a mask and changed his behavior to a monk like toward females. That and his struggle to come to term with Guo Jing being someone who had something to do with his father's death were the two things that defined Yang Guo in the 2nd half of the book. You see the changes in the Yang Guo character from the beginning of the book toward the end of the book. Was that enough? Or did he has to do mea culpa out loud for you? I don't know if he did or not. Frankly I did not read/memorize the book in such detail. But I remember he acknowledged that Lu'en died because of him, and the other 2 girls frustrated because of him. Just the act that he had to ask the two to become his sisters, to me are both his effort to acknowledge his mistakes and was trying to make an amend for it. I could feel the uncomfort he felt staying with them in that Passionless valley. But other than that, what else did he has to regret for? He did not kill or harm Guo Jing.
On the other hand, what I hated about the characters Guo Fu and HR are that they knew what they did was wrong, or sometimes acknowledged that their past action was wrong, then they proceeded to repeat the same mistakes again. For example HR acknowledged that she was too suspicious of Yang Guo, treated him nice a few days, then go right back to suspect him of up to no good thus causing problem for him, then later on she proceeded to go meet him with secret weapons, knife and her stick weapon. And I don't have to mention Guo Fu.
All in all, I did not see Yang Guo as a perfect character that you or some here saw him. To me, he was very much a normal person, had some great lucky fortune happened to him, but still, he suffered quite a bit, and grew up a lot through out the book. But he was never a perfect character. YJ already made sure of that. And at the end of the book, he was not a perfect character either. Because although he was called a hero, to me, he was more of an accidental hero than a real one. But he knew that about himself as well. He was not there to do good for others. He was just bored waiting for his XLN, then did things that happened to help others. So if then he stopped doing those things suddenly, to him, it was no big deal. Because again, he did not set out to do like he did the way Guo Jing gave himself the job to defend Xiang Jang. To me, that was no big deal. Yes, he can grow up not wanting to be a hero. He can be more mature as a person, but at the same time, just wanted to be with his beloved. But by just focus on himself and his beloved, he was not a perfect person. But was that a reason to characterized as immature or selfish? Selfish?, yes, but immature? no. His attitude was no different than say a monk who did not care for the world, but just wanted to practice his zen to free his own soul. And as a man, he is free to do that.

As for the character, I thought YJ did a good job with him. In a novel, sometimes you start out with a perfect character, then destroy him. YJ did that with the Murong Fu character. Then sometimes you start out a character with a lot of misfortune, then build him all the way up. YJ did this with many.

With the Yang Guo character, the way I see it is that YJ made him to be an antithesis of his father. But by making Yang Guo from a misfortune kid to a kungfu great, YJ tempered a perfection by giving both his main character flaws (losing an arm, a hero, but a kind of leftish, Huang Yaoshi's kind of hero who maybe because of his choice or more likely his flaws to be mostly alone), and flaws to his main character's prize (a blemished XLN, and a 16 years wait). This is what I see, not a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu like some here see.

[hoatran]

Cheung Mo Gei has his share of detractors as well, but he comes away better than Yeung Gor because he has the humility to acknowledge his screw ups.

The guy had no great struggle to talk of. The only big loss in his life was when Zhao Zhao left him. Any of his screw ups/acknowledgment changed his life? I can't recall. Of the YJ novels that I read, the two characters I thought were the most interesting are Yang Guo and Xiao Feng. They had the most complex personal struggles. Guo Jing and Zhang Wuji struggles were of the simple types, not as interesting. But Zhang Wuji's struggled even less than Guo Jing. And Duan Yu was a wuss.

[Ken Cheng]

The guy grew up before your eyes in some 40 chapters YJ wrote, but you did not want to see it.

The problem with Yeung Gor is that every time he takes a step forward in his development, he takes two steps back. I lose track of the times during ROCH when I see improvement in him, only for him to backslide very shortly afterwards. This persists to the very end, when he attains a pinnacle of heroic achievement, only to take the skills and leadership he demonstrated during the last battle against the Mongols into retirement when the world still needed him.

That seems to be a running motif with Yeung Gor's character: he never fails to disappoint. Even in his greatest moment of triumph, he somehow disappoints.

It's almost a supreme achievement of anti-achievement.

Started out with his desire to revenge against the QZ sect. He was told to forget about it. And he did.

Did he? It wasn't a matter of his thinking, "I'm at fault for some of what happened as well," but "I'm just sick of dealing with those cow-nosed Taoists."

He started out as a flirt which resulted in some regrettable situations.

This was actually the least and most forgivable of his multitude of sins.

He acknowledged that, then he wore a mask and changed his behavior to a monk like toward females.

...which translates into another Mary Sue-ish episode of "I'm too sexy for all of you."

I guarantee you: any guy who did such a thing in real life would be judged as hopelessly conceited, not "noble," and the defense that this is fiction is weak because even in fiction, the audience needs to be persuaded that the premise is plausible. Fail.

That and his struggle to come to term with Guo Jing being someone who had something to do with his father's death were the two things that defined Yang Guo in the 2nd half of the book. You see the changes in the Yang Guo character from the beginning of the book toward the end of the book. Was that enough?

Not enough. At the beginning of the story, he was loud obnoxious. At the end, he was quiet obnoxious. Loud or quiet, obnoxious is obnoxious.

Or did he has to do mea culpa out loud for you? I don't know if he did or not.

He needs to acknowledge that he is fallible, and more importantly, the *author* must allow him to be fallible and eat the consequences of that fallibility without diverting the blame to other characters. There must be cases wherein the audience is allowed to see/say, "Yeung Gor f*cked up. He made a mistake, and that's why Bad Thing X is happening to him...not because someone else was mean to him."

Frankly I did not read/memorize the book in such detail. But I remember he acknowledged that Lu'en died because of him, and the other 2 girls frustrated because of him. Just the act that he had to ask the two to become his sisters, to me are both his effort to acknowledge his mistakes and was trying to make an amend for it.

This gesture only seemed to make matters worse as far as Ching Ying and Luk Mo Seung were concerned.

But again, it points out his Mary Sue quality: why did EVERY female under the age of twenty in the story have to fall for him? Only Cheung Mo Gei experienced anything comparable and frankly, Cheung did a much better job at earning it by being a much nicer, much more respectful and courteous dude.

He did not kill or harm Guo Jing.

...only because Gwok Jing had better martial arts than Yeung Gor and because Wong Yung had fortunately tipped Gwok Jing off. Yeung Gor was going to stab Gwok Jing to death while the latter slept, and only failed because Gwok Jing was alerted to it and was a much more powerful martial artist.

When all was said and done, did Yeung Gor ever say to Gwok Jing, "Uncle Gwok, I'm sorry I tried to kill you. I thought you were the murderer of my father. I misunderstood."

Come to think of it, did Yeung Gor ever apologize to anyone (other than maybe Little Dragon Girl) for anything he ever did during ROCH? For Yeung Gor, it seems the old Elton John song applies: "Sorry seems to be the hardest word."

On the other hand, what I hated about the characters Guo Fu and HR are that they knew what they did was wrong, or sometimes acknowledged that their past action was wrong, then they proceeded to repeat the same mistakes again. For example HR acknowledged that she was too suspicious of Yang Guo, treated him nice a few days, then go right back to suspect him of up to no good thus causing problem for him, then later on she proceeded to go meet him with secret weapons, knife and her stick weapon. And I don't have to mention Guo Fu.

Forget about Gwok Fu, then, who in her own way, was as contrived a character as Yeung Gor (except that she is what is known as an "Anti-Sue," sort of the Mary Sue character in reverse). With Wong Yung, you need to realize that Yeung Gor's own behavior from childhood into adulthood gave Wong Yung little reason to trust him. Mid-ROCH, Wong Yung judged Yeung Gor in this nuanced way: he is not evil like his father Yeung Hong was, but he was unpredictable and therefore, dangerous. Yeung Gor was incapable of the outright evil that his father was infamous for, but his highly emotional and reckless nature made him no less dangerous in his own way. As the incident with Gwok Jing proved, a wise person doesn't let his guard down around Yeung Gor.

And Yeung Gor has to take responsibility for people judging him this way: in part, at least, he earned it through his own behavior. At best, he can only blame part of it on unfair transferal from his father's reputation.

But that gets back to the heart of the matter: Jin Yong didn't want Yeung Gor to shoulder 50% or even 1% of the responsibility...someone else had to take it all FOR him.

All in all, I did not see Yang Guo as a perfect character that you or some here saw him. To me, he was very much a normal person, had some great lucky fortune happened to him, but still, he suffered quite a bit, and grew up a lot through out the book. But he was never a perfect character. YJ already made sure of that. And at the end of the book, he was not a perfect character either. Because although he was called a hero, to me, he was more of an accidental hero than a real one. But he knew that about himself as well. He was not there to do good for others. He was just bored waiting for his XLN, then did things that happened to help others. So if then he stopped doing those things suddenly, to him, it was no big deal. Because again, he did not set out to do like he did the way Guo Jing gave himself the job to defend Xiang Jang. To me, that was no big deal. Yes, he can grow up not wanting to be a hero. He can be more mature as a person, but at the same time, just wanted to be with his beloved. But by just focus on himself and his beloved, he was not a perfect person.

If Yeung Gor were mere a side character in the story, this might be acceptable.

The fact is, however, that Jin Yong kept on screaming through a megaphone throughout ROCH, "YEUNG GOR IS THE HERO! HE'S THE HERO! HE'S THE HERO!" but then gives us a figure whose heroism is very forced and contrived. The finished product didn't match the hype.

But was that a reason to characterized as immature or selfish? Selfish?, yes, but immature? no. His attitude was no different than say a monk who did not care for the world, but just wanted to practice his zen to free his own soul. And as a man, he is free to do that.

As the purported hero with the alleged big reputation, though, he was a disappointment, and that's putting things mildly.

As for the character, I thought YJ did a good job with him. In a novel, sometimes you start out with a perfect character, then destroy him. YJ did that with the Murong Fu character. Then sometimes you start out a character with a lot of misfortune, then build him all the way up. YJ did this with many.

With the Yang Guo character, the way I see it is that YJ made him to be an antithesis of his father. But by making Yang Guo from a misfortune kid to a kungfu great, YJ tempered a perfection by giving both his main character flaws (losing an arm, a hero, but a kind of leftish, Huang Yaoshi's kind of hero who maybe because of his choice or more likely his flaws to be mostly alone), and flaws to his main character's prize (a blemished XLN, and a 16 years wait). This is what I see, not a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu like some here see.

"Blemished Little Dragon Girl" - victim

"16 year wait" - victim

"lost arm" - victim

Yeung Gor would have been a much better protagonist if Jin Yong didn't give him so many victim cards to play and just let him rise and fall on his own merits, like most of the other protagonists did.

[Ken Cheng]

The guy had no great struggle to talk of. The only big loss in his life was when Zhao Zhao left him. Any of his screw ups/acknowledgment changed his life? I can't recall. Of the YJ novels that I read, the two characters I thought were the most interesting are Yang Guo and Xiao Feng. They had the most complex personal struggles. Guo Jing and Zhang Wuji struggles were of the simple types, not as interesting. But Zhang Wuji's struggled even less than Guo Jing. And Duan Yu was a wuss.

For the three millionth time, it's not about struggle or suffering, it's about screwing up and taking responsibility for one's own shortcomings. The point that Cesare and I have been making until we're as blue as those Avatar aliens is that we aren't interested in whining martyrs as wuxia heroes; we prefer wuxia heroes who make mistakes, ARE ALLOWED TO LOOK BAD, and then earn back our esteem by owning up to and rectifying those mistakes.

With Yeung Gor, that's impossible because Jin Yong never lets him look bad on his own; there's always somebody/something to dilute or divert the brunt of the blame, somehow.

[pannonian]

Because he's dangerously deep into Mary Sue territory, and that's not a good place for a protagonist to be.



Those people have already seen the light and require no further guidance.

It's those who continue to blindly worship the character that I have misgivings about.



The best ones do: Orestes, Oedipus, Hamlet, Othello, Brutus, John Proctor, Willy Loman...just to name a few.

Those who don't tend to be two-dimensional cartoon characters.

Have you read the novel yet, or are you still basing your criticisms on the adaptation(s) you've seen? The wiki definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu bears little resemblance to the Yang Guo I've read.

[Cesare]

Have you read the novel yet, or are you still basing your criticisms on the adaptation(s) you've seen? The wiki definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu bears little resemblance to the Yang Guo I've read.

YG is of course no Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way - but what makes you think he is NOT a Gary Stu at all?

[pannonian]

YG is of course no Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way - but what makes you think he is NOT a Gary Stu at all?

From wikipedia:

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

Yang Guo is a kid who enjoys making entertainment for himself, possibly because he has been outside society for much of his life. Not in the Zhang Wuji sense of living in the wilderness, but living on the edges of society, yet excluded from it. A similar character would be the protagonist in Grave of the Fireflies, but Yang Guo has evidently managed to scratch out a living, unlike the Fireflies character. There are a number of character traits associated with this, such as selfishness (necessary for survival), self-centredness (outside society, he is the only person he knows), shallowness (there is no structure in his life), and probably spitefulness (a desire to be avenged for the beatings he'll have taken in stealing to make a living). Because of his life outside society, he is intensely grateful to those who show him affection, and love and gratitude form the basis of his view of society. Aside from his upbringing, add intelligence and the occasional spark of unselfishness, even to the point of heroism.

Is Yang Guo such an unrealistic character? He's a cocky brat, although as far from spoiled as can be. He has some qualities on top of that, but his brattishness shows throughout, as a not unrealistic consequence of his early life. After his epiphany, he manages to turn that brattishness into qualities of their own. But those qualities are still traceable back to the brattish Yang Guo we see in his first appearance.

I won't defend the unbelievably bland and badly written Xiao Longnu. But I find Yang Guo the most interesting and best written of the protagonists in the Jin Yong novels I've read (the Trilogy, SPW, OTG).

[minutemanwayne]

Have you read the novel yet, or are you still basing your criticisms on the adaptation(s) you've seen? The wiki definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu bears little resemblance to the Yang Guo I've read.

No he hasn't even though the book has been translated for many years. Trust me I never did like Zhang Wuji but after reading the novel he's a very likeable character even though he has his own flaws, but which character doesn't? How can a guy who has not read ANY of these novels have so much HATE for a non-fictional character? Is it because he's secretly jealous of Yang Guo? Even Though I hate Miejue Shitai, I wouldn't go out of my way to make a hate thread on her. That seems childish to me. READ the novel Ken Cheng then maybe you'll like Yang Guo.

[Ken Cheng]

READ the novel Ken Cheng then maybe you'll like Yang Guo.

How about *you* READ the copious text that I've written over the past two years, and maybe you'll understand why I will always and MUST always hate Yeung Gor?

The world could end, and I'd STILL hate him.

FCUK YEUNG GOR AND LITTLE DRAGON GIRL!!!

[kidd]

How about *you* READ the copious text that I've written over the past two years, and maybe you'll understand why I will always and MUST always hate Yeung Gor?

The world could end, and I'd STILL hate him.

FCUK YEUNG GOR AND LITTLE DRAGON GIRL!!!

Please don't confuse WANT and MUST. There's no MUST in your situation. Heck, even NEED is pushing it, let alone MUST.

Even Though I hate Miejue Shitai, I wouldn't go out of my way to make a hate thread on her.

That's because you are not using Miejue Shitai as your punching bag/whipping boy/scapegoat/dart board.

[Ken Cheng]

Please don't confuse WANT and MUST. There's no MUST in your situation. Heck, even NEED is pushing it, let alone MUST.

After all this time...after all these words, you people STILL don't understand.

But maybe I can't blame you. None of you have lived the past twenty-five years I have. You couldn't even begin to imagine the hell it's been.

FCUK YEUNG GOR AND LITTLE DRAGON GIRL!!!

[kidd]

Yang Guo is a kid who enjoys making entertainment for himself, possibly because he has been outside society for much of his life. Not in the Zhang Wuji sense of living in the wilderness, but living on the edges of society, yet excluded from it. A similar character would be the protagonist in Grave of the Fireflies, but Yang Guo has evidently managed to scratch out a living, unlike the Fireflies character. There are a number of character traits associated with this, such as selfishness (necessary for survival), self-centredness (outside society, he is the only person he knows), shallowness (there is no structure in his life), and probably spitefulness (a desire to be avenged for the beatings he'll have taken in stealing to make a living). Because of his life outside society, he is intensely grateful to those who show him affection, and love and gratitude form the basis of his view of society. Aside from his upbringing, add intelligence and the occasional spark of unselfishness, even to the point of heroism.

Is Yang Guo such an unrealistic character? He's a cocky brat, although as far from spoiled as can be. He has some qualities on top of that, but his brattishness shows throughout, as a not unrealistic consequence of his early life. After his epiphany, he manages to turn that brattishness into qualities of their own. But those qualities are still traceable back to the brattish Yang Guo we see in his first appearance.

I won't defend the unbelievably bland and badly written Xiao Longnu. But I find Yang Guo the most interesting and best written of the protagonists in the Jin Yong novels I've read (the Trilogy, SPW, OTG).

This comment actually make me very interested to read the book. But, the book is so long. While reading OTG and Flyingfox, I kept thinking 'when is this chapter going to end?' I just prefer shorter chapters. Someone, it just seem less tiring reading shorter chapters. That's one think I like about Gu Long's novels.

[Ian Liew]

It's just a matter of taste.. just like in everything. when I was younger, I loved Captain America, and couldn't figure out why people loved Wolverine so much (and disliked Cap). Now I'm older, and I still love Cap and dislike Wolverine, but at least I can understand and accept that other people may not feel the same way. That's doesn't quite translate into loving Guo Jing and disliking Yang Guo, though (although I do like Guo Jing which was why I felt compelled to post my first post in this thread). We've all accepted that Ken hates Yang Guo all these .. years, so why dig it all up now and bait him just for the sake of discussion? There must be better things to talk about.

[Bangs]

I find it funny how Ken blatantly proclaim his hate for YG/XLN but at the same time create threads about them. If you really hate them you shouldn't have any interest in discussions concerning them at all. You secretly like YG don't you Ken? Come out of the closet man hahaha!

[Ken Cheng]

I find it funny how Ken blatantly proclaim his hate for YG/XLN but at the same time create threads about them. If you really hate them you shouldn't have any interest in discussions concerning them at all. You secretly like YG don't you Ken? Come out of the closet man hahaha!

NO I DON'T!!!

I'd have left well enough alone, but SOME PEOPLE just HAD to drag Yeung Gor back into the spotlight for more undeserved hype!

To me, that is an ACT OF WAR!

FCUK YEUNG GOR AND LITTLE DRAGON GIRL!!!

And if you're a fan of theirs...well, if I said what was really on my mind, I'd be banned.