Thread: The Deer and The Cauldron

  1. #2581
    Senior Member smurf120's Avatar
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    The superior martial arts definitely fail against common sense and street smarts. I would be ashamed of HuaShan Pai too. How is the nun related? Wouldn't the Gui's be her martial shibos also?

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    Thanks foxs. If your copy says that the time between meeting was 30 years, then it's definitely the third edition. I'm just surprised that Jin Yong didn't make more changes when he rewrote this section. Then again, the interpretation here is that He Tishou really was in love with Yuan Chengzhi. Which would mean that her taste in men is as bad as ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    The Guis still wanted to assassinate the Emperor, however they plan to do so is
    Go to Beijing, kill the Emperor.
    Anybody wants to hazard their chance of success?
    You're missing the awesome subtleties of the plan. The full version is:
    - Go to Bejing, kill the Emperor.
    - Find Wu Sangui, kill him.
    - Commit suicide.

    There's no way they can fail!

    Quote Originally Posted by crazee View Post
    The poison girl seems interesting....she's the one in The Proud wonderer ...right ??
    She's He Tishou from Sword Stained with Royal Blood. She's almost unchanged from that book, hook-for-a-hand and all. The one in Smiling Proud Wanders/XAJH is Lan Fenghuang.

    In general, the poison girls in Jin Yong novels tend to be really awesome. The only real exception is Ah Zi in DGSD.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorrycai View Post
    Now I remembered who's the girl with the hook! Hmmm, the hook should have rusted by now.......hehe. I've always thought Shuang Er's kung fu came from Jiu Nan. So its Hua Shan.......I guess Dugu Nine Sword have gone into extinction by then as well.
    The Hua Shan in these novels have nothing to do with the Hua Shan in XAJH (or HSDs for that matter).


    Quote Originally Posted by smurf120 View Post
    The superior martial arts definitely fail against common sense and street smarts. I would be ashamed of HuaShan Pai too. How is the nun related? Wouldn't the Gui's be her martial shibos also?
    Jiu Nan is from the Tie Jian (Iron Sword) Sect. Her shifu and Gui Xinshu/Yuan Chengzhi's shifu were good friends. Thus He Tishou is technically one generation lower than Jiu Nan, but they were friends before she joined Tie Jian Sect, so it doesn't matter as much.

    There's also no need to be that ashamed of Hua Shan. He Tishou is obviously very competent, and the Fengs who ran the Turtle-Slaying Assembly are highly respectable.

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    Senior Member crazee's Avatar
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    ..... seems like lots of action and character are linked to the "blood stained....." book and it makes me seem so stupid and not in the loop......sigh.

    heh heh heh ...dun you ppl blame a crazee guy...
    cheerio..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedRossi View Post
    You're missing the awesome subtleties of the plan. The full version is:
    - Go to Bejing, kill the Emperor.
    - Find Wu Sangui, kill him.
    - Commit suicide.

    There's no way they can fail!
    Hold your horses. Let's go step by step. The first step of their failproof plan is to kill the Emperor. So, that's where we shall start.
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    Default Chapter 42 - Part 1

    Ace, I believe Toasted was being sarcastic. Just like Smurf said, they only have superior martial art, nothing else. Hence they (naively) thought killing the Emperor was that easy. Crazee, I have the same feeling; I have neither read the book nor watched the adaptation, I don't have any idea what these people are talking about. But from previous chapter, it was implied that Jiu Nan was in love with that Yuan guy, but he did not love her. Anh, you are welcome. Storm season is over, is it not? Lorrycai, why did you think that it was Jiu Nan? Athlon, care to elaborate? As I said, I have never watched any adaptation. Did you mean the adaptation cut a lot of scenes from the book?


    Chapter 42 – Hazy sky outside the imperial watchtower at Jiu Zhong [nine heavy] city walls, blowing wind and cloud spitting discontent.
    (Translated by Foxs)

    The next day Wei Xiaobao took his leave from the host, and then he and Chen Jinnan went separately to the Capital. Chen Jinnan said, “Xiaobao, Gui Er Xia, husband and wife are going to assassinate the Emperor. They have agreed to accept the decision after everybody has discussed it over. When you reach Beijing, you must not notify the Emperor so that he will be on guard.”

    Wei Xiaobao did indeed have this intention, but since his Shifu hit the nail on the head, he hastily said, “Of course; his Tatars occupy our Han people’s rivers and mountains, I became an official in the imperial court under Shifu, you Senior’s order, how can I support him for real?”

    “Then so be it,” Chen Jinnan said, “If you say something without meaning it, and do something to let everybody down, I will be the first who will not spare you.”

    “Shifu, please let your hundred and twenty hearts at ease,” Wei Xiaobao said, while in his heart he said, “Let your hundred and nineteen hearts at ease! I, myself, am not too much at ease.”

    Taking Shuang’er, Xu Tianchuan and the others, he went back to where Zhang Yong, Zhao Liangdong, and the others were waiting. With Mao Dongzhu in custody, they returned to Beijing.

    As soon as he was back at the Tong Maozi Lane, he immediately wanted to see Kangxi, thinking, “The young Emperor is my good friend, how can I let him die under those three turtles’ hands? I got it; I will go to the Palace and order the Imperial Bodyguards to be on high alert, to form tight security. I promised Shifu I won’t tell the Emperor, a real man speaks and keeps his promise, I can’t tell him then I won’t tell him, but I can prevent those three turtles from succeeding.”

    Just when he was going out the door, Chen Jinnan, taking Gu Zhizhong and Ma Chaoxing, arrived. Wei Xiaobao groaned inwardly. “How could you arrive so quickly?” he thought in his heart. Without any choice he raised his spirit to prepare the reception banquet.

    Not long afterwards one after another Tian Di Hui warriors arrived in small groups, followed by Mu Jiansheng, leading his companions, the Iron Back Blue Dragon Liu Dahong, Shaking-Head Lion Wu Lishen, Divine Physician Hermit Su Gang and the others also arrived. Actually Mu Palace people were already in Beijing; they came together after they received the information about the conference.

    Everybody finished eating and drinking, and waited for quite a long time before the three Gui Family arrived. Wei Xiaobao ordered his servants to prepare another banquet. “We already ate,” Gui Erniang said indifferently.

    Gui Zhong glanced around; looking at the grand and luxurious mansion he said, “Baby, the appearance of your house is not too far below Ping Xi Wang’s Wuhua Palace. You did not lie, Wu Sangui is indeed your Bofu [father’s elder brother].”

    “Right,” Wei Xiaobao replied, “Wu Sangui is your …” when he said the word ‘your’, suddenly he closed his mouth, thinking that if blurted out that sentence casually, Shifu must be angry with him. Thereupon he changed his statement to, “Since the three of you have already eaten, please come to the eastern hall to have some tea.”

    They all went to the eastern hall to enjoy some green tea and light refreshments, and then Wei Xiaobao sent all the servants out. Chen Jinnan also sent a dozen or so Society brethren to guard around and on the roof of the hall before he closed the door, bolted it, and started the meeting.

    Chen Jinnan introduced Gui family husband and wife with the Mu Palace people, but he did not mention anything about Wu Liuqi. Although Gui family husband and wife had lived in seclusion for a long time, Liu Dahong, Wu Lishen, and the others were still full of admirations, they were very respectful to them.

    Gui Erniang got straight to the point, “After declaring war Wu Sangui attacked Hunan and Sichuan. The power of his troops is very sharp, as they swept everything. Although in the past Wu Sangui surrendered to the Tatars and forfeited the Great Ming’s world, his crime was great, his evil extreme, but he is, after all, still one of our Han people. In our Gui Er Ye’s [second master] opinion, we want to enter the Palace and assassinate the Tatar Emperor, so that the Tatars will be like a dragon without a head, and will be thrown into confusion. Gentlemen, what’s your wise opinion?”

    Mu Jiansheng said, “Surely the Tatar Emperor ought to be killed, but if we do that, won’t that mean we give Wu Sangui that traitor a big help?”

    Gui Erniang said, “In the past Wu Sangui killed Mu Wangye, naturally Mu Gongzi does not want to let him off. But the distinction between Manchurian and Han is of utmost importance, we must kill the Tatars first, it won’t be too late to slowly deal with Wu Sangui later.”

    Liu Dahong said, “If in this rebellion Wu Sangui triumphs over the opponent, he himself will become the Emperor; to shake him later will not be easy. In Wanbei’s [Junior] opinion, we’ll let the Tatars and Wu Sangui massacre each other, fighting desperately against each other until you die, I live. And then we’ll reap the benefit of spreading the net over them. Thus Junior believes that it is inadvisable to assassinate the Tatar Emperor right now.” Although he had a chin full of white beard, Gui Family husband and wife had made their name long time ago, thus the reason he called himself ‘Junior’. Mu Palace’s enmity against Wu Sangui was as deep as the ocean; they would be very pleased to see his destruction first.

    Gui Erniang said, “Wu Sangui is fighting for the Ming to demand prisoner of war, to rise the banner in assistance of the Third Zhu Crown Prince to ascend the throne. Here we have dispatch order from Wu Sangui, everybody please see.” From her pocket she took a large sheet of paper and spread it out on the table.

    Chen Jinnan immediately read it aloud, “Former Shanhai Pass Guard Zongbing, current grand marshal under imperial orders to preside over water and land under the heaven, great general Wu to rise the Ming to demand prisoner of war, writing to make all civil and military officers, government officers, military soldiers and common citizens under the heavens know: our garrison profoundly received the benefit of the Great Ming’s nobility rank, to unite the garrisons of the Shanhai Pass …”

    Chen Jinnan knew that most warriors did not understand literature; he read several sentences, then explained these sentences. After explaining clearly the first paragraph, he continued reading. The following section explained how Li Zicheng broke into Beijing, how Chongzhen returned to Heaven, how in order to avenge his lord father’s enmity he acted against his will to turn toward Manchurian Qing’s troops and gave them the opportunity to break in. After that he said, “Fortunately the main offender received favor under successive rulers, inherited command, received duty to guard the border, compensated the Manchu tribal chief. Caught unprepared by the deceit of going against the oath to the Heaven, availing myself to my inner void, grandly I seize Yanjing [old name for Beijing]. Humbly I become the divine tool of the former Dynasty, transforming my China’s crown and lower garment: fully aware that I must repel the entering wolves, and correcting the mistake of carrying firewood to put out a fire.”

    Gui Erniang said, “Afterwards he was aware that lending assistance to Manchu troop was wrong, unfortunately it was too late.”

    “Humph,” Liu Dahong snorted, “That traitor really know how to talk, it’s all a lie.”

    “Chen Zongduozhu,” Gui Erniang said, “Please read on.”

    “Yes!” Chen Jinnan said, and continued reading, “Our garrison pierce the heart and vomit blood, my remorse reaches the extreme, desiring to return to the north, wiping out the stench, receiving the late Emperor’s Third Crown Prince. The Crown Prince was only three years old, he did not remember the assassination, he lived as an orphan, he depended on his ancestor’s associates. For the time being drinking blood, waiting patiently, growing up in the dark waiting for an opportunity, selecting generals training soldiers, secretly drawing plans to rise and restore, until today, thirty years later!”

    Listening to this part, Liu Dahong could not hold his patience any longer. He slapped the table and said, “Fart! Fart! This thief with a heart of wolf and lungs of dog whom the Heaven and the Earth cannot tolerate, if he really have half a heart of rising and restoring the Great Ming, why did he murder Emperor Yongli in the past? The Crown Prince Yongli! This matter is well known throughout the world, how would you deny that?”

    When the crowd of heroes saw the look of Liu Dahong’s halberd-like eyebrows, none did not admire his loyalty. They thought that the fact that twelve years ago in Kunming City Wu Sangui hanged Emperor Yongli, father and son, could not be disputed.

    Gui Erniang said, “Liu Dage is not wrong, Wu Sangui is definitely not a loyal subject or a patriot, even a three-year old knows that. The reason we want to assassinate the Tatar Emperor is to fight the Qing and restore the Ming, it is not to help Wu Sangui to become the Emperor.”

    Chen Jinnan said, “Let me finish reading this dispatch order, everybody may take your time in reaching the decision.” He continued reading, “And now, to capture the tyrannical tribal chief, crafty and evil person of high status, let the scholars of righteousness and justice, colleagues who know: narrow-minded generation, all occupying prominent post …” Reading to this point, he laughed toward Wei Xiaobao and said, “Xiaobao, this sentence is talking about you.”

    Listening to his Shifu reading the document, Wei Xiaobao only felt that his intonation, the falling and rising of his voice was very pleasant to hear. Suddenly he heard that Wu Sangui’s document was mentioning him, he could not help but was pleasantly surprised. “Shifu,” he hastily asked, “What did he say about me? That fellow can’t be talking anything good about me.”

    Chen Jinnan said, “He said that well-educated, virtuous good men only become sesame-seed and mung-bean petty officials; those fellows without any skill whatsoever can be high-ranking officer. Isn’t he talking about you?”

    “What about himself?” Wei Xiaobao said, “His official rank is higher than mine; wouldn’t it mean that he is more useless than I am?”

    Everybody roared in laughter; they said, “That’s right! No one in the imperial court has a higher official position than Ping Xi Qin Wang.”

    The final paragraph of the document said, “The mountains miserable the water anxious, women cry children sob, to such an extent as the comets fell the sky above shows its wrath, the landslide the soil cracks, the earth below voices its complaint. Our garrison look upward to observe and look down to examine, in sincerity dispatching expedition against cruelty to rescue the people, obeying the Heaven responding to the people’s days. Lovingly forecasting the first day of the first month of the Jiayin year [51st year of the 60-year cycle], respectfully presenting to the Crown Prince, offering sacrifice to inform the heaven and earth, in veneration ascending the great treasure. Establishing the first Zhou consultant.”

    Finished reading, Chen Jinnan explained the document. With the exception of Chen Jinnan and Mu Jiansheng two people, these people had never read any literary works, they all thought that this dispatch order seemed to be clear and logical; if there was anything not right in it, they could not tell.

    Mu Jiansheng pondered deeply for a moment before saying, “Chen Zongduozhu, if he wanted to present tribute to the Third Crown Prince Zhu and offer him to ascend the Great Treasure, why didn’t he reinstating the Great Ming’s dynasty title, but wanted to change the dynasty title to Zhou? There must be a very big hole in his argument. Let alone we do not know if the Third Crown Prince Zhu or what have you is real or fake; nobody has ever heard anything about him, but all of a sudden he appeared without a head without a brain. Most likely Wu Sangui went out to find a child who does not understand anything, and called him the Third Crown Prince Zhu to appeal to the heart of the people, while in reality he would use him as a puppet.” Everybody nodded their agreement.

    Gui Erniang said, “Wu Sangui uses the Third Crown Prince Zhu as his puppet, naturally I do not doubt it. Whether this person is real or fake, there is not much difference. It’s just that the Third Crown Prince Zhu is not a little child, the late Emperor died for his country already thirty years ago, if the Third Crown Prince Zhu is real, at least he would also be in his thirties.”

    Wei Xiaobao said, “Thirty something baby who does not understand anything is not nonexistent, hee … hee …” While saying that he cast a glance toward Gui Zhong.

    Several warriors were not able to stifle their laughter. Gui Erniang’s eyebrows stood up, she was about to lose her temper, but then she had a second thought: Wei Xiaobao was right, her own precious son was already over thirty years of age, but he was still a little baby who did not understand anything. She could not help sighing softly.

    They talked for a long time. Some proposed to leave Kangxi alone and get rid of Wu Sangui first, and then draw a plan to restore the country; some thought that although Wu Sangui was crafty and evil, in the end he was still a Han, they ought to help him driving out the Tatars, after the Han people’s rivers and mountains were restored, then they would remove him. They kept debating on and on and could not reach the final conclusion. After a long time, they all turned their eyes toward Chen Jinnan, knowing that he was resourceful, certainly he would have a wise opinion.

    Chen Jinnan said, “We attack most importance to our country. If at this moment we kill Kangxi, admittedly Wu Sangui’s momentum will get a lot of boost. But Taiwan’s Zheng Wangye can also cross the ocean and attack to the west; their troops could enter via Fujian and Zhejiang, and attacked straight toward Jiangsu. With this east-west converging attack, the Tatars will definitely collapse. At that time, if Wu Sangui wants to be the Emperor, Zheng Wangye’s force, combined with Mu Palace, Tian Di Hui and heroes from all over the world will be able to control and overpower him.”

    Su Gang coldly said, “By saying that, isn’t Chen Zongduozhu leaning somewhat heavily toward the Taiwan’s Zheng Wangye?”

    Chen Jinnan replied sternly, “Zheng Wangye’s loyalty is well-known throughout the world, could it be that Su Xiong did not believe him?”

    Su Gang said, “Chen Zongduozhu is loyal, brave and chivalrous, everybody respect and submit to you. But by Zheng Wangye’s side, devious and despicable lowly people are abounded.”

    Wei Xiaobao could not bear not to speak up, “That is absolutely correct; take that ‘One Sword Without Blood’ Feng Xifan for example, and then there is Zheng Wangye’s younger son Zheng Keshuang. They all are not good people.”

    Hearing that Wei Xiaobao did not align himself with him, Chen Jinnan was slightly surprised; but thinking that what he said was not wrong, he could not refrain from heaving a sigh.

    Gui Erniang said, “Driving out Tatars is the most important task; as for who will be the Emperor, we have no right to interfere. Fighting the Qing is something we have to do, whether we restore the Ming or not, there is no harm in discussing it slowly. Emperor Chongzhen of the Great Ming was not a good thing anyway.”

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    Senior Member smurf120's Avatar
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    I don't understand the rabid loyalty to the Ming (Hans). The common people seem happy, there are no side stories of pillaging and starvation. I actually feel like WXB might be one of the smartest at this assembly.

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    Foxs, in almost every adaption, everything which happens after the Gui trio appears will be shown in a few episodes. Years literally pass by in a flash. But the books are still detailed. I remember being very surprised by the long read in the Milford version.
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    definitely not action packed....but it goes to show how complicated the situation is. Different factions, different loyalties, unprincipled supporters.....Wow, what more problem can a country have ??? No wonder China was always in a mess in the past.

    Thanks Foxs, I am learning about China from novels.....
    cheerio..

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    Quote Originally Posted by smurf120 View Post
    I don't understand the rabid loyalty to the Ming (Hans). The common people seem happy, there are no side stories of pillaging and starvation. I actually feel like WXB might be one of the smartest at this assembly.
    The common people really are happy, compared to during the reigns of Wan Li and his two successors. The populace practically have no reason to rebel against the Manchus what so ever, except for a minority of them, due to Han chauvinism (Han superiority over barbarians). The Qing dynasty will not be opposed so vehemently by the 'heroes' if it were a ‘Han’ dynasty instead of a ‘barbarian’ dynasty.
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    Thanks foxs
    hurricane season is over sometime in November.

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    Quote Originally Posted by foxs View Post
    Crazee, I have the same feeling; I have neither read the book nor watched the adaptation, I don't have any idea what these people are talking about. But from previous chapter, it was implied that Jiu Nan was in love with that Yuan guy, but he did not love her.
    Thanks foxs. I think that we've already seen the end of all the references to Sword Stained with Royal Blood. The only Jin Yong-original characters to come from that book were the Guis and He Tishou. The only addition to preexisting folklore that he added was Jiu Nan's relation to Yuan Chengzhi et al.

    Quote Originally Posted by foxs View Post
    Did you mean the adaptation cut a lot of scenes from the book?
    All of the adaptations excise He Tishou altogether, and they cut out large portions of the upcoming chapters. They also tend to make major changes to the ending. The 2008 version probably comes the closest to the original novel, but it's butchered in its own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by foxs View Post
    Just when he was going out the door, Chen Jinnan, taking Gu Zhizhong and Ma Chaoxing, arrived. Wei Xiaobao groaned inwardly. “How could you arrive so quickly?” he thought in his heart. Without any choice he raised his spirit to prepare the reception banquet.
    I like this part. It's like Chen Jinnan knew what Xiaobao was up to.

    Quote Originally Posted by smurf120 View Post
    I don't understand the rabid loyalty to the Ming (Hans). The common people seem happy, there are no side stories of pillaging and starvation. I actually feel like WXB might be one of the smartest at this assembly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    The common people really are happy, compared to during the reigns of Wan Li and his two successors. The populace practically have no reason to rebel against the Manchus what so ever, except for a minority of them, due to Han chauvinism (Han superiority over barbarians). The Qing dynasty will not be opposed so vehemently by the 'heroes' if it were a ‘Han’ dynasty instead of a ‘barbarian’ dynasty.
    While the early Qing emperors really were far superior to their Ming counterparts, there was legitimately good reason for Hans to oppose them. First, when the Qing first conquered China, they enacted a number of massacres - Xiaobao's mission to Yangzhou was a response to that. Second, there were a lot of Han-suppression measures enacted: the queue edict, forbidding the dress of Hanfu, keeping Hans from the highest political offices and the like. Third, there were the persecution of scholars like the Zhuang family.

    Of course, the question of whether it's a good idea to rebel against the government still has both merits and flaws - this being one of the central themes of the book.


    Quote Originally Posted by crazee View Post
    definitely not action packed....but it goes to show how complicated the situation is. Different factions, different loyalties, unprincipled supporters.....Wow, what more problem can a country have ??? No wonder China was always in a mess in the past.

    Thanks Foxs, I am learning about China from novels.....
    There was a lot of opposition to the government throughout the Qing dynasty, but that opposition was heavily divided and unorganized. We have Wu Sangui, Taiwan, the Mu family, Tian Di Hui, and other rebel groups. But some of them hate each other more than the Empire, and none can really cooperate to a large degree. It's not until the government weakened in the 19th century that rebellions (i.e. Taiping Rebellion) had much chance of toppling it.

    Jin Yong puts a lot more history into this book than any of his others. A surprising amount of characters are historical figures - can you figure out which they are?
    Last edited by ToastedRossi; 09-06-12 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Fixed tags

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedRossi View Post
    Jin Yong puts a lot more history into this book than any of his others. A surprising amount of characters are historical figures - can you figure out which they are?
    At some point I assumed the only fictional characters were (my conjecture):
    Wei Xiao Bao
    All his wives
    Niu Nan (post arm lost)
    the Guis

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedRossi View Post
    While the early Qing emperors really were far superior to their Ming counterparts, there was legitimately good reason for Hans to oppose them. First, when the Qing first conquered China, they enacted a number of massacres - Xiaobao's mission to Yangzhou was a response to that. Second, there were a lot of Han-suppression measures enacted: the queue edict, forbidding the dress of Hanfu, keeping Hans from the highest political offices and the like. Third, there were the persecution of scholars like the Zhuang family.

    Of course, the question of whether it's a good idea to rebel against the government still has both merits and flaws - this being one of the central themes of the book.
    #1 However, the Ming also massacres the populace indiscriminately. As early as Zheng De’s reign, the Ming has neglected their responsibilities to govern the state in pursuit of personal gratifications. Even when the country was hit by famine and floods, the Ming government did nothing to help the disaster stricken people, instead the taxes were raised.

    #2 As pointed out by WXB, the one who held the highest office in the Qing court (aside from the Emperor himself) was Wu San Gui, a Han. There were a lot of Han officials that held important and key positions in civil administrations and military commands. For example, the commanders of Green Standard Army stationed at the 18 provinces were Hans.

    #3 Those Han suppression measures did not actually affect the populace’s quality of life. Shun Zhi was a good emperor Kang Xi is considered one of China's greatest emperors. During their reigns, the country prosper and the people at peace. Can the same be said of Wan Li, Tai Chang and Chong Zhen reigns? Consider these following scenarios,
    a. Under Ming Dynasty
    Don’t have to shave their foreheads, can wear hanfu clothes, but didn’t have enough food to eat, and have to pay outrageous taxes.
    b. Under Qing Dynasty
    Have to shave their forheads and cannot wear hanfu clothes, but have food to eat, live peacefully and don’t have to pay outrageous taxes.

    #4 Persecution of scholars by the Qing Dynasty (at this point of time) were relatively few and far between compared to during the Ming dynasty. It is known that before he became the first Ming emperor, Zhu Yuan Zhang was illiterate and had been a beggar. While he established his empire, he surrounded himself with scholars, treating them with respect while he learnt to read and familiarise himself with history. He sent out requests to scholars for their presence, and while many agreed others declined for fear of the repercussions if they made a mistake. On occasion the emperor, who was learning to read, would order the execution of someone who had written something he misunderstood.
    You plant a garden and the flowers do not bloom, you poke a stick in the mud and it grows into a tree

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    Thanks for the translations, foxs. I've been following this thread for a while and I finally decided to join the discussion. This is my favorite Jin Yong work so far. I'm kinda upset WXB isn't really discussed here though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedRossi View Post
    Jin Yong puts a lot more history into this book than any of his others. A surprising amount of characters are historical figures - can you figure out which they are?
    I thought at first that Wei Xiao Bao was a fictional character completely made up by Jin Yong. I researched about it and I was wrong. So I thought I'd share this with you guys:

    Wei Xiaobao historical figure is actually Caoyin (曹寅), the grandfather of Cao Xueqin (author of 'Dream of the Red Chamber'). He was actually a childhood friend and personal confidante of Kangxi Emperor and helped him to arrest Oboi. Just like Wei Xiaobao, he was also friends with Songgotu and one of his wives was the sister of Kangxi. Caoyin also accompanied Kangxi four times during Kangxi's six separate itinerant trips to the South. During his trips, Kangxi lived in Caoyin's house. During his 4th or 5th trip to the South, he promoted Caoyin to 1st rank of something (i don't really remember. I need to recheck this). After Caoyin's resignation, he returned home with his family (which is in Yangzhou, same city where WXB was born). When Caoyin was heavily sick one day, Kangxi would send special Western medicine to Yangzhou. It shows how they have a very good relationship (but of course there is much more than what I mentioned that shows how they have a good relationship), like WXB/Kangxi in this novel. So yeah...I honestly think Caoyin is the historical version of WXB. They have many similarities.

    Some people say WXB's historical version is Long Keduo instead. Even though he was also a childhood friend/playmate of Kangxi, he was not as close as Caoyin was with Kangxi simply because Kangxi did not promote his position during his reign (unlike how he did it to Caoyin). He was only promoted when Yongzheng became emperor. Some people believe Longkeduo is the historical version of Duolong.

    And I think Jiu Nan is a historical figure.
    Last edited by zhxzhx; 09-07-12 at 08:34 PM.

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    Jiu Nan is Princess Changping. The Chinese opera Dinu Hua is a fictionalisation of her fate when Ming fell.

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    I've been a lurker for a while and finally decided to come ouit of the closet keep up the good work foxs.
    Quote Originally Posted by zhxzhx View Post
    Wei Xiaobao historical figure is actually Caoyin (曹寅), the grandfather of Cao Xueqin (author of 'Dream of the Red Chamber'). .
    Wow thanks for sharing. I didn't know that. Then DOMD 2008 messed up the ending when they said that Cao Yin was WXB's subordinate. Jin yong said in an interview that Wei Xiaobao is fictional, but I guess he didn't mention that he adapted his character from Cao Yin since they are really similar (except that he didn't have 7 wives, wasn't as lucky as WXB lol). If you don't mind me asking, where did you get the info? Was it in Baike Baidu? Because I checked and there wasnt as much info as you said about WXB and Kangxi's relationship.
    Last edited by itnw123; 09-07-12 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by itnw123 View Post
    Wow thanks for sharing. I didn't know that. Then DOMD 2008 messed up the ending when they said that Cao Yin was WXB's subordinate. Jin yong said in an interview that Wei Xiaobao is fictional, but I guess he didn't mention that he adapted his character from Cao Yin since they are really similar (except that he didn't have 7 wives, wasn't as lucky as WXB lol). If you don't mind me asking, where did you get the info? Was it in Baike Baidu? Because I checked and there wasnt as much info as you said about WXB and Kangxi's relationship.
    DOMD 08 is my second fave adaptation of the novel, but I agree that they somewhat messed up the ending. There was no need to say that Caoyin was WXB's subordinate, since it was not true. There was no need to photoshop that pic ,which looks like a real portrait of WXB and his wives lol. I got it from a book called "Ts`ao Yin and the K`ang-hsi Emperor: Bondservant and Master" translated in English, which mainly talks about his life and his special and rare relationship with Kangxi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    Explanations
    I think that you're helping to prove my point. The Han people (and Taiwan in particular) did have reasons to overthrow the Qing Empire, but the question of whether it's actually worthwhile to do so is an altogether different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by zhxzhx View Post
    I thought at first that Wei Xiao Bao was a fictional character completely made up by Jin Yong. I researched about it and I was wrong. So I thought I'd share this with you guys:
    While Wei Xiaobao can look like a pastiche of different historical figures, he works much better thematically as a fictional character.

    In Jin Yong's other (semi-)historical works, there are at most a dozen characters per novel who are based on real people (Zhu Yuanzhang, Kublai Khan, etc.). In the Deer and the Cauldron, there are dozens of such characters - maybe as much as half the cast.

    Just counting the female characters, we have Princess Sophia, Princess Jianning, the (real) Empress Dowager, and Chen Yuanyuan. You can also add a half as Jiu Nan is a folklore figure (in the Lu Siniang legend).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zhxzhx View Post
    Wei Xiaobao historical figure is actually Caoyin (曹寅), the grandfather of Cao Xueqin (author of 'Dream of the Red Chamber'). He was actually a childhood friend and personal confidante of Kangxi Emperor and helped him to arrest Oboi. Just like Wei Xiaobao, he was also friends with Songgotu and one of his wives was the sister of Kangxi. Caoyin also accompanied Kangxi four times during Kangxi's six separate itinerant trips to the South. During his trips, Kangxi lived in Caoyin's house. During his 4th or 5th trip to the South, he promoted Caoyin to 1st rank of something (i don't really remember. I need to recheck this). After Caoyin's resignation, Che returned home with his family (which is in Yangzhou, same city where WXB was born). When Caoyin was heavily sick one day, Kangxi would send special Western medicine to Yangzhou. It shows how they have a very good relationship (but of course there is much more than what I mentioned that shows how they have a good relationship), but like WXB/Kangxi in this novel. So yeah...I honestly think Caoyin is the historical version of WXB. They have many similarities.

    Some people say WXB's historical version is Long Keduo instead. Even though he was also a childhood friend/playmate of Kangxi, he was not as close as Caoyin was with Kangxi simply because Kangxi did not promote his position during his reign (unlike how he did it to Caoyin). He was only promoted when Yongzheng became emperor. Some people believe Longkeduo is the historical version of Duolong.
    Wow... That's something new to me!
    However, Long Keduo is definitely not not a childhood friend/playmate of Kangxi simply due to their differences in age. In fact, Kangxi only became close to him when he was about to pass away. Kangxi gave him control of the capital's troops so as to make his succession a smooth one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chowbeng View Post
    Wow... That's something new to me!
    However, Long Keduo is definitely not not a childhood friend/playmate of Kangxi simply due to their differences in age. In fact, Kangxi only became close to him when he was about to pass away. Kangxi gave him control of the capital's troops so as to make his succession a smooth one.
    Oh you're right. I just checked and yes, they weren't really close. Actually, he helped Kangxi to arrest Oboi as well. However, he didn't get promoted unlike Caoyin and Kangxi never paid attention to him until in his later reign.

    This link explains why a few people think Long Keduo is WXB's historical figure. [x] Though I find that Caoyin has much more similarities to WXB than Long Keduo.

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