How powerful was the Dali Kingdom during DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH?

[Ken Cheng]

The Dali Kingdom was featured in DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH. During DGSD, Dali was one of five conflicting political entities (six if you include the Mo Yung Family's lost Yin Kingdom): Northern Sung Kingdom, Liao Empire, Hsi Hsia Kingdom, and Tubo Kingdom being the others. During L/ROCH, Dali coexisted with the Southern Sung Kingdom, the Jin Empire, and the Mongol Empire (the Hsi Hsia Kingdom still existed, but didn't really figure into L/ROCH much other than being the venue of some battles during late LOCH).

Was Dali considered a major military threat by any of its neighbors/rivals? Dali struck me as being a small country with very limited military resources compared to its neighbors, despite having elite martial artists as rulers.

[Dirt]

Given its size, I'd say not very powerful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_11b.jpg

[Ken Cheng]

Given its size, I'd say not very powerful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_11b.jpg

That's what I figure too, but when the characters discuss Dali's military capabilities in DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH, they seem to believe that Dali can actually be a difference-maker in the balance of power among nations.

[galvatron]

The Dali Kingdom was featured in DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH. It was one of five conflicting political entities (six if you include the Mo Yung Family's lost Yin Kingdom): Northern Sung Kingdom, Liao Empire, Hsi Hsia Kingdom, and Tubo Kingdom being the others. During L/ROCH, Dali coexisted with the Southern Sung Kingdom, the Jin Empire, and the Mongol Empire (the Hsi Hsia Kingdom still existed, but didn't really figure into L/ROCH much other than being the venue of some battles during late LOCH).

Was Dali considered a major military threat by any of its neighbors/rivals? Dali struck me as being a small country with very limited military resources compared to its neighbors, despite having elite martial artists as rulers.

I think Dali was actually bigger than Hsi Hsa at some time ,however it was actually a Sung colony or vassal states of Sung like relation between China and North Korea of today,it military was control by Sung ,Dali was a yes man for Sung all time .

[Ken Cheng]

I think Dali was actually bigger than Hsi Hsa at some time ,however it was actually a Sung colony or vassal states of Sung like relation between China and North Korea of today,it military was control by Sung ,Dali was a yes man for Sung all time .

That seemed to be the case all through DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH. Dali was always allied with Sung against the other kingdoms. Dali's governmental and military conventions seemed to be most directly modeled on the Sung's. Even Dali's culture seemed to take its cues from the Han culture, although with a stronger Buddhist bent.

[wkeej]

Seems to have gotten a mental block: May I ask who is the main Dali character in LOCH and ROCH?

[Ken Cheng]

Seems to have gotten a mental block: May I ask who is the main Dali character in LOCH and ROCH?

South Emperor Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng the Monk and his Merry Men.

[BlackRaven]

Was Dali considered a major military threat by any of its neighbors/rivals? Dali struck me as being a small country with very limited military resources compared to its neighbors, despite having elite martial artists as rulers.

I don't think the neighbors viewed Dali as a threat because generations of its monarchs adopted a peaceful foreign policy.

During the Northern Song dynasty of Xiao Feng's era, proportionally speaking Dali's population was too small to cause a menace.

However, during the Southern Song dynasty, the proportions changed and Dali could be a military threat if they chose to.

In the Three Kingdoms era, Wei held the northern half of China and had maybe 56-60% of China's population. Shu under the Liu dynasty only held 15% or so of the population. Yet Shu aggressively launched 11 northern campaigns, all lost, but Wei still viewed them as a threat.

The Southern Song held the southern half of China, which would be equivalent to Wei and I think Dali could represent Shu.

I don't think the Dali royal Yi Yangzhi fighters were a big deal during the Northern Song, as the Song had better elite fighters.

However, during the Southern Song, after Wang Chongyang's passing (who was also a patriotic fighter), if Dali led by Yideng (no monkhood of course) launched an attack from the south at the same time as Jin from the north, they could carve out a piece of the Song for themselves.

Ouyang Feng wouldn't care, Huang Yaoshi wouldn't care, Hong 7gong would have to choose between fighting north or south, he'll probably choose north . Besides that's where the main threat would be.

A Great level fighter leading an army unopposed by another elite fighter could claim some victories, especially when the Song supposedly has a weak military compared to other dynasties of China.

[Ian Liew]

Afaik, the Liao and Xixia allied against Song and Jin, and were thrashed to the point the Liao no longer existed after that. Not sure if Xixia was still around, though. Jin then turned on Song having witnessed how weak they were in battle against the Liao and Xixia - Song's army was weak, and relied on diplomacy, and the playing of one neighbour against another to survive.

If I remember correctly, Dali was on the opposite side of China from the main Liao/Jin threat to the north. Dali was southwest, Xixia was west (and probably neutralised already). Dali would probably not be a threat on its own, but if they were to attack from the back the Song would probably not be able to withstand it. I seem to recall somewhere that Kublai Khan actually went round China and subjugated Dali before conquering China and breaking Xiangyang and Fancheng - it was a strategically useful place, even if the army wasn't strong.

[Ken Cheng]

Afaik, the Liao and Xixia allied against Song and Jin, and were thrashed to the point the Liao no longer existed after that. Not sure if Xixia was still around, though.

Hsi Hsia survived until Genghis Khan conquered it early in the 13th Century.

Jin then turned on Song having witnessed how weak they were in battle against the Liao and Xixia - Song's army was weak, and relied on diplomacy, and the playing of one neighbour against another to survive.

The Jin also felt that the Sung had not lived up to their end of the bargain in helping to fight the Liao because the Jin had done the bulk of the fighting against the Liao. The Jin felt they had a better claim to the northern territories than the Sung did because the Jin had fought much harder for it.

I seem to recall somewhere that Kublai Khan actually went round China and subjugated Dali before conquering China and breaking Xiangyang and Fancheng - it was a strategically useful place, even if the army wasn't strong.

This is true. Changing their approach to attack Seung Yeung from the southwest rather than from the north was a big part of the final Mongol victory at Seung Yeung.

[Dirt]

One of the first things Zhu Yuanzhang did was subjugate and annex the former Dali Kingdom.

[Ken Cheng]

One of the first things Zhu Yuanzhang did was subjugate and annex the former Dali Kingdom.

By that time, of course, the territory had long since ceased using the name "Dali" and being ruled by the Deuns. I think the territory acquired a new name under Mongol rule. The name "Dali" pretty much fell out of use except for the city.

[Ken Cheng]

Dali Kingdom's military seemed to serve a function as Sung auxiliaries. There were probably fewer Dali troops than Sung troops, but I have the impression that the Dali troops were better trained, better supplied, and had better morale.

[Trien Chieu]

Given its size, I'd say not very powerful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_11b.jpg

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Wow, China was so small during the Southern Song dynasty, much smaller than the current China.