LOCH Greats compared to Ding Chunqiu, Duan Yanqing, Xuanci etc

[chibidaisuke]

According to some posts, I think I saw someone said that long ago people here thought that the ROCH Greats were the equivalent of people like Ding Chunqiu, Duan Yanqing, Xuanci etc. However, it seems now most people no longer think that way and hold the end of ROCH Greats to be almost equal to the DGSD Elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi). But what of the Greats during the LOCH period. During LOCH do you think that they were equal to Ding Chunqiu, Duan Yanqing etc? Or were they stronger or weaker than them?

[PJ]

The old school theory of Greats =~ Ding Chunqiu etc seems based on comparison of Long Distance Attack (LDA) abilities. In that sense, DGSD Elites > Greats. But if you base it on a comparison of martial arts expertise and creativity, I believe the Greats > DGSD Elites.

Thus, my personal opinion is that DGSD Elites are more powerful, while the Greats are more knowledgeable.

This is consistent with Jin Yong's statement that Xiao Feng's XL18Z > Hong Qigong's XL18Z and Guo Jing's XL18Z.

[Ken Cheng]

Thus, my personal opinion is that DGSD Elites are more powerful, while the Greats are more knowledgeable.

That's a weird paradox. Please share with us your ideas to explain how this paradox can be logically reconciled.

I worded that very carefully to avoid an ARTS response.

[tape]

It's easy for someone to be more powerful but less knowledgeable.

Zhang Wuji, You Tanzhi, Guo Jing in his early LOCH days etc are all more powerful than most martial arts experts who have more profound theories and experience by simply outclassing them in one area, normally inner strength. For whatever reason the DGSD elites could just be stronger and faster but actually have a lower understanding of martial arts. Not that I necessarily agree, but it could be true. Perhaps humans have a natural affinity to be stronger internally and externally the farther back in time you go

[PJ]

Recently there was a thread in which myself and CC correlated DGSD Elites & Condor Greats with 2 types of business men. Remember this?

Anyway, by the time Jin Yong wrote DGSD, he had made more progress in writing interesting feats. So DGSD's action focused on impressive feats (such as long distance attacks, sealing acupoints through the air, invisible sword energy, suddenly go from 90 years old to 12 years old, etc).

Back when he wrote LOCH/ROCH, there was more focus on each exponent's impressive knowledge, so the exciting battle scenes you see are things like Huang Yaoshi trying to break the Quanzhen Big Dipper Formation, Ouyang Feng trying to find the counter to Dog Beating Stick, Guo Jing trying to break the Big Dipper Formation II, Guo Jing using his sophisticated XL18Z to endure against GWM + 3 Mongolian warriors, etc, Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng coming up with new stances during their fight, etc.

Using film as an analogy, DGSD Elites are like a big explosive action movie that grossed $500 million, while the Greats are like an intelligent thriller that grossed $400 million.

[PJ]

It might also make more sense to always remember that DGSD's main goal was to show that no matter how powerful, humans cannot escape human suffering unless enlightened. To illustrate this point, Jin Yong needed to give uber power to some people and make them suffer. If he spent a lot of time describing how they got so powerful a la LOCH, it would have detracted from his main goal. The point was to get these people uber powerful ASAP, and develop some quick way to show it, so they can start suffering.

Which is why even the protagonist, Xiao Feng, is introduced as an adult at the PEAK of his martial arts. It supports the main goal of the novel.

[chibidaisuke]

It might also make more sense to always remember that DGSD's main goal was to show that no matter how powerful, humans cannot escape human suffering unless enlightened. To illustrate this point, Jin Yong needed to give uber power to some people and make them suffer. If he spent a lot of time describing how they got so powerful a la LOCH, it would have detracted from his main goal. The point was to get these people uber powerful ASAP, and develop some quick way to show it, so they can start suffering.

Which is why even the protagonist, Xiao Feng, is introduced as an adult at the PEAK of his martial arts. It supports the main goal of the novel.

I also believe that's the theme of DGSD. But then in that way I would like to think that the DGSD Elites would be well, at least fairly more powerful than the Greats of Condor Trilogy (Not that I believe in it but I used to until reading discussions on this thread). If the Elites were only a little bit stronger or equal to the Greats then I don't think they can be considered very powerful and won't match with Jin Yong's theme of the suffering of superpowered beings. I'm probably not making any sense here.

[PJ]

I also believe that's the theme of DGSD. But then in that way I would like to think that the DGSD Elites would be well, at least fairly more powerful than the Greats of Condor Trilogy (Not that I believe in it but I used to until reading discussions on this thread). If the Elites were only a little bit stronger or equal to the Greats then I don't think they can be considered very powerful and won't match with Jin Yong's theme of the suffering of superpowered beings. I'm probably not making any sense here.

A few things to consider about how the super powers of DGSD are conveyed:

1. There are sages above the level of DGSD Elites, namely the Xiaoyao Pai elders and Sweeper Monk. They also illustrate the central theme of DGSD.

2. More than just the martial artists; the martial arts of DGSD also set it apart from the Trilogy. There's simply no amazing arts in Trilogy that can kill ppl with invisible sword energy (6MSJ), inject ice projectile into opponent and control them (Shen Si Fu), absorb opponent's internal power and convert to your own (BMSG), traverse a short distance without ever being caught (LBWB), etc. Some of the outlandish arts like 6MSJ and YJJ did not necessarily have a Elite-level representative.

3. the Greats are also very powerful, and I definitely think they're good enough to illustrate DGSD's central theme. It's just that Jin Yong chose a different angle to highlight people's martial arts in DGSD: more instant gratifications like LDA and SOATTA, whereas the Greats' power was shown more through tactical problem-solvings that required great depth and understanding.

So all in all, I don't think DGSD Elites must be a lot better than the Greats to illustrate DGSD's theme. I must say Jin Yong was very clever to use a quick and dirty way to make the people and martial arts seem very powerful in DGSD, but in fact I think it may be somewhat inflated since he didn't show whether the DGSD Elites can solve complex problems like the Greats. For example can Murong Bo come up with a counter to all 36 stances of Dog Beating Stick (like Ouyang Feng did)? Can Xiao Yuanshan break the Big Dipper Formation (Huang Yaoshi almost did), other than using brute force.

[PJ]

So it all boils down to one sentence for me: DGSD Elites seem to have more brute force/raw power than the Greats, but the Greats seem to be more sophisticated, which can be considered better from a martial artist's point of view, as Laviathan once said. But in an actual combat who would win, is not as easy to determine.

As a sidenote, of the DGSD Elites, Jiumozhi is the one who demonstrated the most sophistication, from his halting of 6 streams of LDA in mid air (crazy stuff!), to his making a cauldron jump upward by hitting it horizontally, to his omni-directional attack on Murong Fu. Jiumozhi has the badass oomph of a DGSD Elite, while exuding the sophistication of a Great. And this is why I love Jiumozhi as a martial artist!

[tape]

In the same vein, people of the SPW actually showed more sophistication in technique/energy manipulation than people in LOCH/ROCH imo. We have Essence Absorbing, Dugu 9 Jian, Yin-Yang LDA palms, Taichi, Daizhong Way (), generally more talk of energy streams and manipulating energy, sword circle lights from 4th tier fighters, Sunflower Manual, etc all of which concentrate on either technique or energy manipulation rather than the LOCH/ROCH method of gathering huge inner strength and winning through that.

Now it could just be that the LOCH/ROCH greats could perform all of the above but just did it instinctively (DG9J's philosophy) rather than needing guidance in technique, but from just novel descriptions, it seems we can generalize that the SPW era had higher level sword/palm technique and energy manipulation while generally possessing much less raw power and inner strength. Kind of similar to the comparison between DGSD/LOCH.

[chibidaisuke]

So it all boils down to one sentence for me: DGSD Elites seem to have more brute force/raw power than the Greats, but the Greats seem to be more sophisticated, which can be considered better from a martial artist's point of view, as Laviathan once said. But in an actual combat who would win, is not as easy to determine.

As a sidenote, of the DGSD Elites, Jiumozhi is the one who demonstrated the most sophistication, from his halting of 6 streams of LDA in mid air (crazy stuff!), to his making a cauldron jump upward by hitting it horizontally, to his omni-directional attack on Murong Fu. Jiumozhi has the badass oomph of a DGSD Elite, while exuding the sophistication of a Great. And this is why I love Jiumozhi as a martial artist!

Is that why you tend to rank Jiumozhi above both Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo?

[chibidaisuke]

Also aren't your descriptions on Jiumozhi more based on feats than deep understanding and sophistication of martial arts?

[chibidaisuke]

Anyways, in a real fight between Elites and Greats even though the DGSD Elites are only a little more powerful than the Greats I kinda think the Elites will probably beat the Greats without huge amounts of trouble. Like it'll probably won't take like 1000 stances or more to decide the victor since the Elites will probably start to perform impressive and crazy feats that the Greats will have a lot of trouble in countering and defending against it. They might even be totally at a lost in trying to counter the feats.

[PJ]

In the same vein, people of the SPW actually showed more sophistication in technique/energy manipulation than people in LOCH/ROCH imo. We have Essence Absorbing, Dugu 9 Jian, Yin-Yang LDA palms, Taichi, Daizhong Way (), generally more talk of energy streams and manipulating energy, sword circle lights from 4th tier fighters, Sunflower Manual, etc all of which concentrate on either technique or energy manipulation rather than the LOCH/ROCH method of gathering huge inner strength and winning through that.

Now it could just be that the LOCH/ROCH greats could perform all of the above but just did it instinctively (DG9J's philosophy) rather than needing guidance in technique, but from just novel descriptions, it seems we can generalize that the SPW era had higher level sword/palm technique and energy manipulation while generally possessing much less raw power and inner strength. Kind of similar to the comparison between DGSD/LOCH.

For DGSD martial arts, I think Jin Yong looked at the Greats and said "these guys know way too much, now I'm going to create some characters who don't know half as much but can do more."

For Dugu 9 Jian, Jin Yong must have said "you know, I think someone really only needs to know a few really important things, so I'm gonna cut the rest of the crap out." That's Chong'ge.

For general SPW period, I would say the same as for DGSD: the MA is more exotic than LOCH/ROCH, but the depth of understanding is not there.

I think it's reasonable to argue that "well, the Greats CAN perform exotic feats like LDA, it's just that Jin Yong hadn't thought of those exotic feats when he wrote LOCH." I believe it's a valid argument, and equally valid is this: "the SPW/DGSD Elites DO have deep understanding of martial arts just like the Greats, it's just that Jin Yong did not emphasize that any more, so it's not seen in the story."

[tape]

Adding onto the idea of LOCH/ROCH being written earlier thus not having LDA's and energy absorbing arts, it could also be the reason why he had to concentrate more on martial arts philosophies and more esoteric knowledge of martial arts. He had to create the aura of great depth and understanding in martial arts (plus speed and strength) in order for them to seem as awesome as they are since they don't have the out of this world skills as in the other novels. They may not necessarily have greater understanding/depth in martial arts, it's just JY's earlier style concentrated more on that stylistic description rather than feats of power like in DGSD.

I personally don't think the Greats are supposed to be superior in martial arts knowledge/depth than people like Murong Bo, Jiumozhi, and definitely not the XiaoYao elders.

[Western Eccentric]

According to some posts, I think I saw someone said that long ago people here thought that the ROCH Greats were the equivalent of people like Ding Chunqiu, Duan Yanqing, Xuanci etc. However, it seems now most people no longer think that way and hold the end of ROCH Greats to be almost equal to the DGSD Elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi). But what of the Greats during the LOCH period. During LOCH do you think that they were equal to Ding Chunqiu, Duan Yanqing etc? Or were they stronger or weaker than them?

Well I think at best Duan Yanqing and Xuanci more or less around End LOCH Guo Jing level..