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Thread: Murong Bo vs Guo Jing

  1. #41
    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Is L/R Tech any more unbelievable than being able to shift anyone's any move back to himself? The concept sounds nice, but the explanation of how it works is so vague (Shifting North Star technique).
    Star-Shifting has always sounded like some massive superpower beyond comprehension like most of the stuff in DGSD, while L/R, being in LOCH, has suffered from mortal men trying to rationalise how it works, almost to the point where it is believable. Part of the reason why I still think MRB would have the advantage. The DGSD elites weren't human, while Guo Jing and the LOCH greats seem to be closer to what people can physically imagine in terms of martial arts.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    I'm cool with L/R technique being applicable for swords, since even a casual swing and cut flesh. So you don't need to worry too much swinging hard.
    And the Jade Maiden style was made for 2 complimentary swords. It's power output is the same so long as you have 2 swords working at once, which is what XLN managed with L/R.

    But with unarmed combat, the stance is crucial to make the strike work. And stances usually favour one arm attacking at a time. One leg forward one leg back etc. When you launch two techniques simultaneously, how does it fit?
    If that's the case, then why would XLN even need L/R? She already knows how to use CZ sword techniques and AT sword play. Why didn't she just swing her sword with two arms prior to learning L/R? Why did she need YG?

    The L/R (although vaguely explained) is supposed to allow people to do two separate stances, each with it's own individual internal chi utilization. Otherwise, anyone can just swing two swords around and end up with the same results as XLN.

  3. #43
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    I'm guessing it has something to do with ambidexterity, and doing both at once proficiently. Like how Da Vinci was able to write and draw at the same time.

    With that she could probably use both not only at once, but with one hand supporting the other. Along with whatever internal energy technique needed as well. The focus is after all, on the blade.

    I'm just saying that I believe most unarmed techniques use the whole body, you can't split the work up as easily.
    The same probably applies for swords, the example I gave is also pretty weak and I don't really buy it myself. Except that I imagine it's easier to cause more damage swinging both swords at once than it is to throw 2 punches at once.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Shi-Potian's Avatar
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    i have to agree with the majority here, l/r technique definitely reduces the power of each technique, and after reading about the body stances involvement in hand combat its even a little ridiculous 2 believe that each fist constitutes a full power technique.

    in the same vein though xln l/r is only a little better off as each hand is using a separate swordplay with presumably a heck of a lot more then 18 moves. furthermore, as they are complimentary sword techniques they do not necessarily need to be launched simultaneously , allowing more leeway in matching the body to the technique.

    thats my 2 cents

  5. #45
    Senior Member chibidaisuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    That's a HUGE advantage! One that would definitely put GJ above MRB IMHO.

    I have mentioned before that people tend to disregard the power of the l/r technique. (I will say it again, I think JY royally screwed up when he created it and had never mentioned it again during subsequent battles against Great's caliber oppoents)

    When ZBT finally figured out in LOCH that he had learned L/R technique, he was 100% confident that he had surpassed HYS. Just based on the fact it would be like one HYS having to fight two ZBT's!

    And when GJ fought OYK on Peach blossom island after learning L/R, he beat OYK in a single stance and broke OYK's ribs by sending two simultaneous dragon palms. When just a little before that, GJ was still much inferior to OYK in terms of technique (fight that GJ lost when OYK used snake fist).

    That's why everytime I reach ROCH, I always think to myself... "How can GJ NOT be able to fend of the Mongolians mercs? He should be owning them left and right"

    Think about this scenario-- When GJ and GWM first clashed palms at the Hero's meet... why didn't GJ just use L/R technique and send out TWO dragon palms? One would be blocked by GWM, and the other would've broke his fricken ribs just like OYK! Or GJ could've used vacant fist to dissolve GWM's force like ZBT did at the end of ROCH, while simultaneously using dragon palm and smacking Goldie upside the head?

    Last example: XLN without L/R was far inferior to LMC. With L/R she was freaking out the Mongol Merc's including GWM. How can it be that GJ with at least same internal to the Greats, better stamina, vast 1st tier techniques and 9-yin be only marginally better than other Greats.
    Guo Jing being only slightly better than the other Greats despite seemingly having all the resources is probably due to Jin Yong wanting to keep the Greats all around equal.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    That's why I think either JY created a techniques that looks better on paper (excuse the pun) than in practice, or the L/R should be a MUCH more powerful technique.

    JY first goes to show how LOCH GJ can easily take out a superior OYK with 2 dragon palms. So it is established that GJ somehow can manage to contort his body and execute 2 simultaneous palms (and as I've mentioned, I don't know how to actually picture that- I personally can't imagine GJ doing a kang long you hui while also doing Fei long zhai tian). But JY says he can

    Now we have XLN. If it's just about swinging two swords with each hand that covers eachother's weaknesses, you don't technically need L/R right? I mean, XLN already knew both AT and CZ. So only rationale is that somehow L/R allows for a new fusion of ambidexterity that achieves better results. And with regards to the whole "it's easier to visualize two handed sword strikes as opposed to 2 unarmed palm strikes because palm stances require the whole body" argument: Who says that sword techniques doesn't use the whole body? Prior to L/R, XLN AND YG needed to literally fly around and prance with both CZ AND AT swordplay just to cover each other's weaknesses. I assumed during their first encounter with GWM that it wasn't just YG using his right hand and XLN using her left hand that formed the complimentary Jade Maiden. So either JY screwed up with his conception of the L/R idea or the L/R is seriously underrated.

    And lastly, herein lies the biggest paradox with the L/R: All Greats lvl fighters can already fight multiple opponents simultaneously w/o learning the L/R technique. All the Greats can already block with one hand while attacking with the other; or launching two separate attacks at different foes. So the only thing that would make the L/R unique MUST lie in it's UTILITY of 2 separate attacks.

    A good example of that would be: I believe that HYS can't fight YD and OYF at the same time simultaneously (meaning he can't stand in the middle and have YD attack from the right and OYF attack from the left). But I believe GJ can. GJ can literally stand in the middle and fight YD on the right with one set of dragon palms and fight OYF on the left with vacant fist.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 10-02-10 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #47
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    Using Y1Z and LMSJ as an example. We assume that Yideng and DY can't launch 10 Y1Z/LMSJ out of all 10 digits at once. We assume they can't because if they could have, they would have.

    Reasons I can think of are either that the technique although executed by 1 finger, it uses the whole body to channel it, so you have no free movement to execute more than 1 at once. Or that it requires complexed neigong that is hard to do as drawing 2 pictures simultaneously is hard to do.
    Not sure how XF's advice to DY to use his LMSJ singularly plays into this.

    We all know that being ambidextrous is extremely beneficial to sports and martial arts, but not too many people are good at it regardless.
    Wing Chun is said to be focused on ambidexterioty, and from what little I've practiced of it, that's what it's built upon, 2 hands doing chi sao, defending and attacking simultaneously. But one hand is always defending while the other is attacking, they don't both attack at once.
    So I agree with you that that it should be about being able to launch 2 independent attacks at once. But even more than that. Each arm should be able to follow up on the various variations of the techniques independently, so that essentially they're fighting 2 chess battles at once. Atleast then, that sets it apart from just a regular simultaneous attack.

    I agree that sword techniques should use the whole body to execute. What I remember from the description of Jade Maiden, it was powerful and nigh unbreakable because one sword covered the weaknesses of the other sword and vice versa. So I always imagined they are standing pretty close to each other in order to do that.

    But yeah, L/R technique is pretty vague.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Exactly!! =)

    The L/R is very vague... and very difficult to imagine/visualize in real combat. But it must have something to do with the ability to execute 2 stances, with equal power, and 100% utilization, and follow up on variations. Otherwise, why even have an L/R?

    Oh and I just wanted to provide some food for thought ideas about Jade Maiden. In order for Jade Maiden to be complimentary, it doesn't necessarily mean that the two swordplays have to be executed close to each other. They merely make up for each other's weakness. So using the example of MRF and YTZ fighting XF-- MRF and YTZ weren't exactly fighting side by side literally. The duo probably more likely attacked XF from different angles with different speeds and techniques. That was the perfect complimentary nature of YTZ and MRF's duo, not because they were close. My idea on the original Jade Maiden is more akin to what I described regarding MRF+YTZ.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Exactly!! =)

    The L/R is very vague... and very difficult to imagine/visualize in real combat. But it must have something to do with the ability to execute 2 stances, with equal power, and 100% utilization, and follow up on variations. Otherwise, why even have an L/R?
    It does not have to be equal power and 100% utilization to give it an advantage though. If you launch two separate techniques with say 70-80% efficiency/power, the result can be better than launching one technique with 100%. It is an improvement, but not a full double improvement, which seems more in-line with GJ/ZBT's improvements. XLN is probably an exception because she had a special art designed to be complimentary, and it was a sword art to boot.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It does not have to be equal power and 100% utilization to give it an advantage though. If you launch two separate techniques with say 70-80% efficiency/power, the result can be better than launching one technique with 100%. It is an improvement, but not a full double improvement, which seems more in-line with GJ/ZBT's improvements. XLN is probably an exception because she had a special art designed to be complimentary, and it was a sword art to boot.
    Let's assume that it really is only a 70-80% efficiency/power. It still doesn't make sense that GJ can't beat the living tar our of the other Greats.

    Some scenarios:

    1) Assuming simple wuxia mathematics (which we all know is flawed anyways, but bear with me)-- GJ is 70% of a Great at the end of LOCH, thus giving HYS and H7G a 30% advantage over GJ. But, none the less GJ was able to intercept a full powered dragon palm from H7G with his own dragon palm. So we establish that 70% dragon palm can withstand a 100% dragon palm although not without some minor shock. So why didn't GJ just use 2 separate dragon palms at the same time vs H7G? So two of GJ's reduced efficiency palms together would still be stronger than one of H7G's full power palms. The math: GJ palm = 0.7 H7G palm and L/R palms is 0.7 of regular palm; there fore 2 x 0.7 (0.7 H7G) palm ~= 1 H7G palm

    2) Also using Wuxia mathematics-- Given that GJ by the end of ROCH probably had internal energy greater than/or at least equal to the other Greats. Then if GJ executed 2 stances at 70%, it would add up to 140% of another Great's one stance. So, if GJ were to unleash 2 dragon palms simultaneously against another great, and if the other Great was to receive it head on, they would receive some sort of shock! Because GJ is now at a 40% advantage when it comes to pound for pound palm clashing! And since the LOCH Greats with only a 30% advantage can stun GJ... then a ROCH GJ with L/R should stun another Great. Thus making GJ > than any other Great by a 40% margin (or at least output of raw power per stance)!
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 10-04-10 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #51
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    May I ask you which Greats (exclude QQR and pre 16 years Goldie) ever "loose" to L/R skill in 1 on 1 fight..

  12. #52
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I can swallow Left/Right Hand Technique a lot easier than I can swallow Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword theories.
    Oh yeah? How about if LHC learnt L/R technique and was able to put his swords in TWO surprising positions at the same time?
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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