Did the Cheun Jen Sect basically replace Shaolin in LOCH/ROCH?

[Ken Cheng]

In most wuxia stories, Shaolin represents *the* major mainstream martial arts sect - the one with the big reputation and the big resources.

Shaolin was not featured in L/ROCH in any significant way, but would you say that the Cheun Jen Sect (which appeared *only* in L/ROCH) essentially took Shaolin's place in those two stories? As I see it, the Cheun Jen Sect basically fulfilled Shaolin's usual function in those stories.

[Dai Hiep]

shaolin a bunch of useless fcks in the trilogy as a whole, and in every story out there...they appear to be all high and mighty and be respected, but they are no different to all the self proclaim righteous clans...the crap they pull behind the doors when dealing with their own kind or the other sect members who dont share their ideals are good as dead or viewed going against them...They are just arrogant.

i wont sit for the top job in jiang hu, but you better come to me and ask for my opinion and if you dont agree to it, you are dissing me.

to them there is no right or wrong or inbetween, either your with us or against us, we will put down judgement as we see fit...hey why dont u stay in this room for 10yrs while we investigate...talk about being douches...

whatever happen to the buddha teachings, forgive and forget, puts ur weapons down and forget everything head for the buddha to wrinse ur sins...

[CC]

One thing to keep in view is that when JY first wrote his LOCH/ROCH stories back in the 50s, Shaolin and Shaolin kung-fu did not have as large a cultural impact as it does now in the wuxia/kung-fu community.

JY's writings was one of the original reasons how the fantasy Shaolin got famous.

So when LOCH was first penned, the notion of 'Shaolin #1 Sect under heaven' not yet the norm.

[Ian Liew]

shaolin a bunch of useless fcks in the trilogy as a whole, and in every story out there...they appear to be all high and mighty and be respected, but they are no different to all the self proclaim righteous clans...the crap they pull behind the doors when dealing with their own kind or the other sect members who dont share their ideals are good as dead or viewed going against them...They are just arrogant.

i wont sit for the top job in jiang hu, but you better come to me and ask for my opinion and if you dont agree to it, you are dissing me.

to them there is no right or wrong or inbetween, either your with us or against us, we will put down judgement as we see fit...hey why dont u stay in this room for 10yrs while we investigate...talk about being douches...

whatever happen to the buddha teachings, forgive and forget, puts ur weapons down and forget everything head for the buddha to wrinse ur sins...

Shaolin wasn't portrayed negatively in every JY novel out there.. In Smiling Proud Wanderer, Abbot Fang Zheng was a wise and humble man who made a lot of good decisions, trusted the right people, and stood by his friends. And he could fight very well too.

[Ken Cheng]

Shaolin wasn't portrayed negatively in every JY novel out there.. In Smiling Proud Wanderer, Abbot Fang Zheng was a wise and humble man who made a lot of good decisions, trusted the right people, and stood by his friends. And he could fight very well too.

Still, he was just *one* monk in one novel. In each Jin Yong story featuring Shaolin, there was always at least *one* truly great monk, but the organization as a whole usually doesn't look too great.

[Doc Kwok]

Shaolin wasn't portrayed negatively in every JY novel out there.. In Smiling Proud Wanderer, Abbot Fang Zheng was a wise and humble man who made a lot of good decisions, trusted the right people, and stood by his friends. And he could fight very well too.

Shaolin in the Duke of Mount Deer were pretty decent too, and almost too humble. The abbot, Hui Cong, calmly accepted a grave insult (Shaolin doesn't live up to its name, the martial arts of the monks are not worth a dog's fart or a penny/dime) to his face from the Mongolian prince in public view without retaliating. In just about any other JY novel though, every monk in Shaolin would immediately be crying out for blood!

[Ken Cheng]

Shaolin in the Duke of Mount Deer were pretty decent too, and almost too humble. The abbot, Hui Cong, calmly accepted a grave insult (Shaolin doesn't live up to its name, the martial arts of the monks are not worth a dog's fart or a penny/dime) to his face from the Mongolian prince without retaliating. In just about any other JY novel though, every monk in Shaolin would immediately be crying out for blood!

By the time of DOMD, Shaolin was probably weaker (as wulin in general was) than it had been in earlier times and couldn't afford to be arrogant.

[Dirt]

For the era, it makes sense historically. Quanzhen is still a major Daoist school and Wang Chongyang's influence on Daoism is pretty big. Historically, the Mongols liked Quanzhen so much, they exempted them from paying taxes.

[Ken Cheng]

For the era, it makes sense historically. Quanzhen is still a major Daoist school and Wang Chongyang's influence on Daoism is pretty big. Historically, the Mongols liked Quanzhen so much, they exempted them from paying taxes.

Confucianism, Legalism, Taoism, and Buddhism were philosophical/spiritual outlooks that waxed and waned during the long progression of Chinese history. The Tang Dynasty, for example, was very Buddhist-oriented, but the Sung Dynasty had a more Taoist bent. I think we see this in DGSD and L/ROCH. DGSD took place relatively early in the Sung era and thus, had a stronger Buddhist bent. L/ROCH took place later in the Sung era and consequently, had a stronger Taoist character.

[Dirt]

I believe Buddhism was still very popular during the Song Dynasty. Wang Chongyang's internal alchemy (meditation) was, I believe, a way to include and compete with Chan Buddhism (zuochan). As Daoism regained its popularity during the Song to equal Buddhism, Confucianism was losing ground and adapted by also including a form of meditation (amongst other things) and evolved into what we now know as Neo-Confucianism.

I think it is this evolution of religious and spiritual belief in Chinese history that prompted Jin Yong to have a Buddhist monk that was a Confucian scholar and knew a lot about Daoism to take 9 yin zheng jin and create 9 yang shen gong.

[Ken Cheng]

I believe Buddhism was still very popular during the Song Dynasty.

It was. It just didn't enjoy the overall dominance it had during the Tang era.

[Ian Liew]

Still, he was just *one* monk in one novel. In each Jin Yong story featuring Shaolin, there was always at least *one* truly great monk, but the organization as a whole usually doesn't look too great.

Fang Zheng's martial brother Fang Sheng was also a very reasonable man (at least after their first encounter). It wasn't like the rest of Shaolin were really bad, you just never get to hear them speak. Fang Zheng and Fang Sheng were the only two high-level Shaolin monks who had any role in the story, and both came out pretty good.

[Dai Hiep]

cheun jen sect they were full of fail anyway just like the wudan brothers in hsds, they were basically living off their sensei reputation, those guys deserved no respect....