DGSD: was the Liao Empire really in a position to conquer the Sung Kingdom?

[Ken Cheng]

In DGSD, Khitan Liao Emperor Yeh Lut Hung Gei had big ambitions: he was planning to invade the Northern Sung Kingdom as part of a larger campaign of conquest that would eventually include Dali Kingdom and Hsi-Hsia Kingdom.

Was the Liao Empire, at that point of its history, strong enough to undertake such an endeavor? By the time of Yeh Lut Hung Gei, the Liao Empire was already on its last legs, and within a generation, would be wiped out by the Jurchen. If the Liao Empire had attacked the Northern Sung as Yeh Lut Hung Gei planned, the Khitan likely would have been on the losing end of that war. Even when the Liao Empire was at the height of its strength, it was unable to fully conquer the Sung territories. During the reign of Yeh Lut Hung Gei, the Liao were probably not strong enough to take on the Sung.

[Ian Liew]

Like the Jurchen, the Liao wuld probably have been content to take out just half the Song up to Kaifeng. You don't have to take over the entire area geographically to expand your territory. The Song army traditionally never really had a strong army anyway, and relied on diplomacy to win their wars, as they would do later by getting the Jin to help them with the Liao and Xixia.

[Ken Cheng]

Like the Jurchen, the Liao wuld probably have been content to take out just half the Song up to Kaifeng. You don't have to take over the entire area geographically to expand your territory. The Song army traditionally never really had a strong army anyway, and relied on diplomacy to win their wars, as they would do later by getting the Jin to help them with the Liao and Xixia.

I'm not sure the Liao would win, though. At this point of history, the Sung weren't as weak as they would later become. I think the Khitans would probably get themselves badly mauled in a war against the Sung, but gain little or no territory to show for it...or might even lose ground in the end.

[athlee]

If you are talking about in DGSD, then they will probably win easily. Remember, Xixia wanted a piece of Song and JMZ seem to indicate that his country would be more than ready to grab a piece for themselves too.

Given that Song was partial to diplomacy, they would probably spend lots of time arguing amongst themselves and trying to get the other states (who, besides Dali, appears more than ready to grab a piece of land) to help.

I have nothing to contribute if you are talking about real history

[Ken Cheng]

If you are talking about in DGSD, then they will probably win easily.

Not necessarily. Even in the world of DGSD, the Liao Empire had reached the penultimate chapter of its history. The man (Jurchen chieftain Yeun Nan Aguda) who would bring an end to the Liao Empire was already well into his quest to build his own empire (the Jin). The Liao weren't even in condition to defend themselves, let alone try to conquer another territory. If they couldn't do it when they were stronger (e.g. earlier in Sung/late Tang times), how could they do it when they were at death's door?

[athlee]

Not necessarily. Even in the world of DGSD, the Liao Empire had reached the penultimate chapter of its history. The man (Jurchen chieftain Yeun Nan Aguda) who would bring an end to the Liao Empire was already well into his quest to build his own empire (the Jin). The Liao weren't even in condition to defend themselves, let alone try to conquer another territory. If they couldn't do it when they were stronger (e.g. earlier in Sung/late Tang times), how could they do it when they were at death's door?

Aguda was the Jin founder? I thought they were just a random wandering tribe. Like I said, if it is history you are talking about, I don't know.

[Ken Cheng]

Aguda was the Jin founder? I thought they were just a random wandering tribe.

At that point, they were, but within a few decades of DGSD's end, Aguda would eradicate the Liao Empire and establish an even more powerful empire.

Of course, a hundred years later, Aguda's empire would fall to Temujin's.

[PJ]

In DGSD, it is written that:

辽国是天下第一大国，比大宋强盛得多。

The Liao nation was the biggest nation in the world. It was much stronger than the Song empire.

[Ken Cheng]

In DGSD, it is written that:

辽国是天下第一大国，比大宋强盛得多。

The Liao nation was the biggest nation in the world. It was much stronger than the Song empire.

I think Jin Yong oversold the power of and threat posed by the Khitan Liao Empire in DGSD, much as he had oversold the power of and threat posed by the Jurchen Jin Empire in LOCH, at least when compared to real history. During the Tang Dynasty, the Khitan were viewed more as a nuisance than a dire threat, and even in the waning years of the Tang when the dynasty was collapsing, the Khitan were unable to take great advantage of the chaos - gaining sixteen prefectures in the extreme northeast of what had been Tang territories, but not remotely threatening the heart of the Central Plains. The Khitan also failed to capitalize upon the period of disorder that followed the the fall of the Tang and preceded the establishment of the Northern Sung Dynasty, and although the Sung never became nearly as powerful as the Tang, the Khitan still could not fully exploit the Sung's relative weakness.

History establishes the Liao Empire as far more inglorious than Jin Yong depicted it.