Does Jin Yong create crappy villains?

[Ken Cheng]

One seemingly repeating weakness of Jin Yong's stories is that he creates villains that are...underwhelming. Somehow, a number of his villains are deficient in various ways that make them less of a threat to the protagonists than they should be. Cases in point:

1. Mo Yung F'uk (DGSD): ostensibly, the main villain of DGSD (if that story ever had one), but...never could quite put it together. All the heroes had much more powerful martial arts than he did, and his schemes were half-baked at best.

2. Yeung Hong (LOCH): very weak martial arts skills and not a great schemer, especially considering that he was usually opposing Wong Yung on the other end.

3. Golden Wheel Monk (ROCH): Greats-level martial arts, but had an incredible penchant for snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

These are the three that come most prominently to mind, but considering they're all fairly high-profile villains in the Jin Yong canon, it does seem that Jin Yong produces a number of duds among his antagonists.

[tape]

JY villains seem to be more of just evil side characters than true villains and antagonists. Besides someone like Yue Buqun, rarely are you wondering what the villain is up to or worrying the main character is falling into a trap. They just happen to be interesting side stories that prolong the adventure rather than creating a purpose for the protagonist to fight against.

[Dirt]

I agree. The one thing that TVB always had at the end of the vast majority of their kung fu series was the big fight at the end of the story between the "good guy" and the "bad guy." I remember that in one of Stephen Chow's first TVB serials (87? 89?), he poked fun at that when he was getting his butt kicked at the end with the bad guy. It's been so long ago that I can't remember how it ended though.

[Ken Cheng]

Despite generally having crappy *main* villains, Jin Yong does a surprisingly good job with creating interesting or threatening *secondary* villains (which makes you wonder why the secondaries couldn't be the mains). Ding Chun Chou was only a secondary villain in DGSD, but he might have been the best one from that story. Mui Chiu Fung might have been the most interesting villain in LOCH. Lee Mok Sau and Gung Sheun Tze trump the Golden Wheel Monk in ROCH, and Mit Jeut See Tai probably made for a better "villain" than Sing Kwun in HSDS.

[CancerLuna]

Lol,

Greats-level martial arts, but had an incredible penchant for snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

^ beautiful.

I think JMZ and Cheng Kun were good, as well as YBQ for LHC.

[remixedasian]

Well, Yang Kang did play a role in killing five of the Jiangnan 7 Guai, as well as murdering OYK.
GWM was pretty underwhelming, I agree.
I actually liked the diversity.

And Jin Yong's come up with some pretty memorable villains:
Yue Buqun, Ren Woxing, DFBB, Ouyang Feng, Murong Bo/XYS, and to an extent Zhou Zhiruo
I thought Cheng Kun was a pretty good villain too.

[Zhuge Liang]

One seemingly repeating weakness of Jin Yong's stories is that he creates villains that are...underwhelming. Somehow, a number of his villains are deficient in various ways that make them less of a threat to the protagonists than they should be. Cases in point:

1. Mo Yung F'uk (DGSD): ostensibly, the main villain of DGSD (if that story ever had one), but...never could quite put it together. All the heroes had much more powerful martial arts than he did, and his schemes were half-baked at best.

2. Yeung Hong (LOCH): very weak martial arts skills and not a great schemer, especially considering that he was usually opposing Wong Yung on the other end.

3. Golden Wheel Monk (ROCH): Greats-level martial arts, but had an incredible penchant for snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

These are the three that come most prominently to mind, but considering they're all fairly high-profile villains in the Jin Yong canon, it does seem that Jin Yong produces a number of duds among his antagonists.

I think the best thing about Jin Yong's villains is that they are complex and have weaknesses too. Despite their strengths they have weaknesses and are often the victims of fate too.

MRF - i felt so sorry for him. It was like JY was being all moral and was preaching a lesson that schemers never win which really is not true. That guy tried so hard and yet all his schemes were thwarted by individuals or groups who were niave to the point of danger despite being notables in wulin. Imo at least some of his schemes should have suceeded.

I feel they are only underwhelming in what they achieve but not in terms of the impression they leave for me.

[smurf120]

I thought Madam Ma was an excellent villain - is she considered secondary?

[Trien Chieu]

In term of creating powerful and dangerous villains, GuLong done a much much better job than Jin Yong.

[ChanceEncounter]

In term of creating powerful and dangerous villains, GuLong done a much much better job than Jin Yong.

Not sure I agree with that. Better "main" villain, sure. But I personally like a story that isn't "beat the bad guy and win." These are supposed to be stories, not video games. Some of the best stories have, ostensibly, no real villain at all. Everyone can be an antagonist for someone else.

[CancerLuna]

From the perspective of an RPG, with many mini bosses, a sub boss and main boss type battles, I think SPW had the best setup. LPZ makes a fantastic opposite to LHC and a great sub boss whereas YBQ as the final manipulative villian makes the story memorable.

[Banh Mi]

And DFBB is Ultimate weapon?

[Xaari]

I thought Madam Ma was an excellent villain - is she considered secondary?

Since readers inevitably hate Madam Ma to the core, she makes a very convincing villain. But I suppose she's secondary because she dies halfway through and only affects the Beggar Clan and Qiao Feng, and not either of the other two protagonists Duan Yu (well, other than her relationship with his player father) and Xu Zhu.

Oh, and her death is really anticlimactic. O_O

[devilz91]

DFBB is that stupid optional super boss that you can never kill without a huge party or cheats.

[CancerLuna]

And DFBB is Ultimate weapon?

Yeah

Crazy to think that each of the greats within a weaker novel would seem that mighty and powerful. But then they get bunched together and their appeal is lessened.

Edit;

DFBB might as well have been an optional boss if SPW was a game, and he would gotten destroyed every single time if it wasn't for his lucky scenario in the story.

[Dulahan]

Wow... I always liked Golden Wheel Monk - I saw his 'defeat from the jaws of victory' as being a great example of his humanity. Not to mention he was still very much a product of the Wu Lin, just in his own nation, not China proper.

[devilz91]

What if the Sweeper Monk was a villain?