Qiu Chuji has much better internal energy than Ouyang Feng: 100% proved!

[Ren Wo Xing]

At the meeting with the Seven Freaks at the start of the novel, Qiu Chuji carried a huge copper urn that was stated to have a diameter that was more than a meter wide, and which was filled with wine. It was specifically stated that the urn by itself weighed 400 jin, and that the wine inside made it much heavier.

再看他手中托的那口大铜缸时，一惊之下，不由得欠身离椅。这铜缸是庙宇中常见之物，用来焚烧纸锭表章，直径 四尺有余，只怕足足有四百来斤，缸中溢出酒香，显是装了美酒，那么份量自必更加沉重，但他托在手里却不见如 何吃力。

After he saw the large copper urn held in the Daoist's hands, he couldn't help but unexpectedly rise in shock. Copper urns like this were commonly seen in monasteries and were used for burning incense. It was more than 4 feet wide and weighed at least 400 jin. The urn was overflowing with a fragrant scent; clearly, it was filled with wine. The weight, naturally, would be even greater. But this man was able to carry it without showing the slightest hint of strain.

Based on the stated width (1.33 meters across) and the expected depth of a standard sacrificial urn of this size (at the very least 0.6 meters high, and probably higher), we can come up with a projected maximum capacity of at least 0.8 cubic meters. Given that wine pretty much has the same density as water, we can use water's density (1000 kg per cubic meter) to estimate the weight of the wine inside the urn as 800 kilograms, ie 1600 jin.

In other words, the urn, if fully filled with wine, weighed at least 2000 jin; even if it was only half-filled, it would weigh at least 1200 jin! But Qiu Chuji was able to hold it up with ONE HAND! We know for a fact that it was filled with a good amount of wine; Zhang Ahsheng was able to drink wine from the urn just by lowering his head into it when he was holding it, and Ke Zhen'e was able to drink from it just by tilting it slightly when he held it up on his staff. So even if it wasn't filled to the brim, there was definitely a large amount of wine in the urn.

Now compare this to Ouyang Feng's performance on the boat when fighting Hong Qigong, and when he was trapped by a falling mast/sail.

那张帆又大又坚，连着桅杆横街，不下数百斤之重，欧阳锋跃了两次，都未能将帆掀开。他虽遭危难，心神不乱， 竖起蛇杖要撑开帆布，岂知蛇杖却被桅杆压住了竖不起来。他心中叹道：“罢了罢了，老儿今日归天 ！”

The sail was both large and solid, and was attached to the mast; it was at least several hundred jin in weight. Ouyang Feng tried jumping twice, but was unable to push the sail away. But although he was in a dangerous situation, he remained calm and didn't panick. He grabbed his Serpent Staff and tried to use it to prop the sail up. But unfortunately, the staff was trapped beneath the mast and he wasn't able to lift it up. Ouyang Feng sighed to himself, "Forget it, forget it, looks like this old man is going to Heaven today!"

Qiu Chuji was able to very easily hold up a urn of base weight 400 jin, with total weight between 1200-2000 jin based on how much wine was in it, with one hand. But Ouyang Feng, when trapped by a sail weighing "several hundred jin," was unable to do anything; he wasn't even able to lift up the mast enough so that he could remove his staff! Yes, Ouyang Feng was in a very dangerous situation; the sail was burning, and he was trapped under it. But the novel specifically states that Ouyang Feng remained calm and did not panick (no Broken Wheel Monk panic-chokejob here).

This is all within the same novel, and 100% canon. This consequently proves 100% that Qiu Chuji has much stronger internal energy than Ouyang Feng; as Qiu Chuji was not a very physically imposing man, the fact that he was capable of a much greater strength feat than Ouyang Feng can only be explained by his greater internal energy.

Anyone care to dispute this?

[tape]

Plus lifting something with your hands is exponentially harder than lifting it with your legs! A really strong person will struggle to lift their bodyweight over their heads with their arms, while they could easily lift 2x their bodyweight with their legs.

[athlee]

ARGHH!!! I HATE THIS NEW LAYOUT! I HAD TO RETYPE EVERYTHING BECAUSE APPARENTLY I WAS LOGGED OUT!!!

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikiped...ustus_2007.JPG

Anyway, lets try again. I am assuming that the urn is similiar to the one in the link above.

To start with, RWX, your calculation of the volume looks wrong. 0.8 seems to be what you get from 1.33x0.6, but that is square meter and not cubic meter. If the surface of the urn is square, it should be 1.33x1.33x0.6 or 1 cubic meter. But the picture I posted is rectangular, so lets say it is only half as wide as it is long, that would make it 1.33x0.67x0.6 or 0.5 cubic meter. Also, as you can see, the sides are thick so each side should lose at least 10cm. The bottom should also lose 15cm since the bottom should realistically be thicker. That would make the total volume only 1.13x0.47x0.45 or 0.24 cubic meter. Thus a fully filled urn should only weigh 480 jin plus 400, about 880 jin. Not being full, it might weigh about 800 jin for easy calculation.

See, suddenly it is only several hundred jin heavy.

As for the sail and mast, the weight was only referring to the sail being several hundred jin heavy, but the sail is attached to the mast which must weigh several hundred jin also.

There you have

[Banh Mi]

It might be leverage. It's easier to stabilise and just hold something above your head. Body mechanics will help you prop something up once you have it up there, he might have really struggled to lift it up in the first place, but once it's up, it's alot easier.
OYF on the otherhand had to lift a long object. When the weight isn't balanced, leverage can work against you.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Actually, I was originally assuming a circular urn, but yours works as well. Your calculations arriving at 800 jin assume the smallest possible area (using the thickness to measure inwards from the given parameters), and also assumes that the urn is rectangular...but even so, Qiu Chuji holds 800 jin for ages (plays with it really) with one hand with no sign of strain. Ouyang Feng is totally helpless against a sail weighing 'several hundred jin', unable to even push it away from him! Qiu Chuji still has the decided advantage in this comparison.

RE Banh Mi, Qiu Chuji couldn't have been holding the urn above his head; he took drinks out of it.

[Banh Mi]

The urn would be atleast waist height, if he took drinks from it, then it would be impossible for him to be holding it from the bottom, the easiest way to hold it. That would mean he was holding onto a handle from the side. Then, holy crap, that is hardcore.

[PJ]

Of course Qiu Chuji is > Ouyang Feng. We've already established that Qiu >> Xiao Feng by feat of Releasing Water From Body!

[ChronoReverse]

When talking about leverage, using the legs and such, these arguments only show OYF is even weaker since he had the advantage of those whereas QCJ didn't. Lifting an object with proper posture and as close to your center of gravity using your legs is easier (taking advantage of the said leverage and legs). QCJ was casually holding the urn in the most awkward manner losing the advantages of both. OYF, on the other hand, had the mast fall on him. That means he's lifting straight up with the advantage of his legs. In terms of leverage, half the weight of the mast is supported by the other end since it fell from an upright position like a tree.

The only real argument is the one about the sail also being extremely heavy (which is true) but the way JY wrote the dialog, it doesn't make much sense that he wasn't referring to both the mast and its sail.

The urn would be atleast waist height, if he took drinks from it, then it would be impossible for him to be holding it from the bottom, the easiest way to hold it. That would mean he was holding onto a handle from the side. Then, holy crap, that is hardcore.

This nailes it. I've always thought this scene made out QCJ to be stupendous. I think JY had originally meant for QCJ to be higher level than he ended up being and the got the idea of the actual Greats later but forgot about QCJ's feats.


In the end, the obvious answer (in the manner of "stop having fun guys") is that JY was simply inconsistent and has no sense of scale.

[Ian Liew]

From a non-intellectual point of view, I think it's easier to take a deep breath, go HAIIIKK!, and lift up something than to try and push it up when it's fallen SPLAT on you and you can't really take your deep breath and go HAIIIKK! and prepare yourself. It's like in Hu Hua Ling, when Wang Susu leapt 10 zhang up the cliff. There was a sign there saying to leap another 5 zhang up to find the next clue, but she couldn't go any further. Long Fei understood, because when you've expended all your breath after 10 zhang, even if you wanted to move up an extra inch from 10 zhang you wouldn't be able to. Taking another breath from 10 zhang up to leap another 10 zhang is also not an option - you need to prepare to jump, take a deep breath, go HAIIIKK and leap up 10 zhang, and that's as far as you get.

What I'm guessing is that Qiu Chuji had his feet on the ground, took a deep breath and picked up the cauldron. Ouyang Feng was halfway fighting, and possibly had just expended his breath, and was getting ready to take another when SPLAT! Unless he could somehow recover his position and take his deep breath and go HAIIIKK, he would be as helpless as Wang Susu 10 zhang mid-air, unable to even move up another inch.

[tape]

Holding something by a handle over your head with one hand is pretty ridiculous. Scaling it, that person should be able to lift 20x that weight easily with their body. But then again this is our physiology and wuxia fighters probably channel all their inner strength into one area so there could be no extrapolation into what more he can do.

[Dirt]

Perhaps it's just an application of Quanzhen internal: converting internal into strength versus the poison application of Hama Gong.

[chibidaisuke]

Yet despite this Qiu Chuji and the other Quanzhen Masters with their Big Dipper Formation could not overcome Ouyang Feng at the Misty Rain Tavern.

[K2Grey]

Looks like irrefutable evidence to me!

[Ken Cheng]

Looks like irrefutable evidence to me!

It's irrefutable evidence that Jin Yong doesn't always carefully think this sh*t through.

But as a (fan) fiction writer myself, I can understand the difficulty, so I don't blame him (too much).

[shortsight]

Hmm, interesting, let me try.

I believe everyone is able to lift a bucket of water easily, however, can you hold a fully soaked mop with your arm straight and held the mop parallel to the floor such that you are pointing the mop to the front? Similarly, a dumbbell with a dead weight of 100kg can be lifted with a single arm by a weightlifter, but he would not be able to hold a pole of 100kg which is 10m long pointing to the front (not to the sky).

It's the force (newton) and the center of gravity that decides Ouyang Feng not able to push the mast away.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The issue is, Ouyang Feng couldn't even budge the mast enough to retrieve his staff. He doesn't need to lift the mast up, he just needs to push it away from him...and he's pushing with his legs, not just his arms. Gravity/leverage actually works for Ouyang Feng as opposed to against in this comparison.

[remixedasian]

You see, the wine Qiu Chuji drank was actually a highly potent performance enhancer.
Under its effect, Ke Zhen'E and Zhang Ahsheng were also able to hold up the urn.
If Ouyang Feng were to drink it, he'd be able to move the Titanic with his Serpent Staff, let alone a puny sail.

[forgot password]

the mast was pretty long so it possibly got stuck in the structural components of the boat after falling down.
if it didn't, then this is just a brain fart of JY, as in the very next chapter, he wrote that guo jing could lift 400 jins, and the combined force of ouyang feng + huang rong (basically ~ zero) + guo jing could stir a rock that weighed 10,000+ jins.

[ChronoReverse]

Hmm, interesting, let me try.

I believe everyone is able to lift a bucket of water easily, however, can you hold a fully soaked mop with your arm straight and held the mop parallel to the floor such that you are pointing the mop to the front? Similarly, a dumbbell with a dead weight of 100kg can be lifted with a single arm by a weightlifter, but he would not be able to hold a pole of 100kg which is 10m long pointing to the front (not to the sky).

It's the force (newton) and the center of gravity that decides Ouyang Feng not able to push the mast away.

But the other end of the mast isn't in mid-air, it's still lying on the ship's deck. With that in mind, OYF is supporting only a portion of the mast's weight!

[shortsight]

If the other mast is possibly stuck as mentioned by 'forgot password', then it is an unmovable dead weight, which an even harder task. Unless there's a mechanical screw or whatever that allows such movement, it's like trying to lift the wing of a plane without lifting the plane itself, which is impossible.

I think what the JY missed mentioning is whether the broken mast is still attached to the ship.