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Thread: Is it true?

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    Member Lianazhu's Avatar
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    Default Is it true?

    Just curous here mostly. I was in a recent debate with my parents. They are purely anti Chinese and it makes me sick, and have been slandering the country as a whole. I do not see if what they say is true about the country. For example;

    My mother says that China forces abortions. From what I recall hearing on the radio back in late 2008 to early 2009, that law had been either dropped or lifted to a point. Mom says that the abortions are forced, and the children are eaten. Is that true? I was brought up in a catholic house, and it makes me sick to think that people would think such things. So I want to know if it is true, and if its not.

    What makes things worse is that my mom doesn't want me watching Chinese movies or TV shows, much less buy them. Wont even let me buy anything made in China, which is next to impossible because almost everything in the stores these days are made there.

    I read in National Geographic magazine that China's government as a whole was failing, and that those in power were looking to its people for proper leadership tactics and what to do next.

    I'm ready to go to the local priest near to my house at our church and ask him his thoughts on the matter. I hate being told lies about a country I've always wanted to visit, and I now wonder if any thing I'm told is true. I know China has the OCP, but that they actually eat the unborn child after it is aborted? Somebody tell me that's not true!

    This is up for debate, since its here. I want to know the truth behind such alligations, even though my parents say it, I want to know if it is true.
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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    I only did a search in snopes.com on the foetus eating story, which actually isn't new. You can try researching further on google.

    http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/fetus.asp
    Last edited by Guo Xiang; 12-01-10 at 08:58 PM.
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    So it is exaggerated? The guy that did that they said made a ham look like an unborn infant. I'll take it as exaggeration and not true, but how do I tell my parents that part of the debate is a dupe? Personally the only group of people I knew of (in history (feel free to correct if I'm wrong)) that ate their young, or any memebers of their people as a whole were the Aztecs.

    Now, since it is exaggerated, how do I tell my parents without them kicking me off the computer for a month, (or life for that matter) that the OCP only goes so far? My google-fu isnt that great, but it helps to a point. nothing in the OCP articles says what my mom said at all. Sure most families perfer a son over a daughter, but to actually give the daughter to an orphanage? Does not make sense to me at all.

    Should I ask my parents to adopt me a sister from China? I'm really tempted to ask such a thing. Just to see how they'll react really. I still think I should ask my local Catholic Priest for his take on the matter. I really don't like the idea of China being so blasted the way my parents talk about it.
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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Do your parents hate China-Chinese or all Chinese in general? If they are so prejudiced against Chinese, I doubt they will want to adopt a child from China.

    Did your parents say anything about communicating with Chinese online anyway? Since there are a number of Chinese on Spcnet.
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    I do not think they know I'm even here on spcnet as it is, They're OK with some people that I know of that are Chinese (six friends from church and then two guys I used to work with are all from China), then some friends of ours adopted twin girls from Beijing directly.

    I asm not sure if they dislike China as a whole because of the rumors, or because of the government there. They're the type that are pro freedom of religon, speech, prolife, et al. Just to name a few. What I don't understand is why they wont let me buy movies made there of all things, which I find strange. (the series in question that I want to buy are pretty much two of Ada Choi's TV series, and one of Yu Bo's TV series).

    But knowing my parents, its pretty much not possible unless I can somehow get them to see the reality from the rumors.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Do your parents also know that Catholic priests molest children en masse and Western countries abort more kids a year than entire population of many countries?
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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lianazhu View Post
    I asm not sure if they dislike China as a whole because of the rumors, or because of the government there. They're the type that are pro freedom of religon, speech, prolife, et al. Just to name a few. What I don't understand is why they wont let me buy movies made there of all things, which I find strange. (the series in question that I want to buy are pretty much two of Ada Choi's TV series, and one of Yu Bo's TV series).
    People always use the 'boycott their product' tactic to show their displeasure towards a company/country.
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    Senior Member ByTmE's Avatar
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    Your parents are interesting. My parents....well my dad doesn't care for the Chinese people [from China, that is] that much because he thinks that most of them are inclined to be somewhat racist. He's speaking from personal experience...but he also married my mom. My mom's the type of woman who proudly claims a Cambodian nationality but when pissed off reverts back to her Chinese ethnic roots. It's complicated. I understand where you are coming from though not as drastic as in your case haha. Very very mildly understand your parents but I can relate to your discomfort. I'm normally neutral towards China until I read about the stronghold it has towards the country that I consider to be my "homeland".

    But, I'm really not quite sure what you are asking. People do terrible things in every country.
    Last edited by ByTmE; 12-02-10 at 12:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Do your parents also know that Catholic priests molest children en masse and Western countries abort more kids a year than entire population of many countries?
    Are we actually going to go into this topic? (this is actually false by the way, only a few cases have been reported. my own parish priest commented on it too. but I will not go into this topic as my personal thoughtsd of the matter are rather..... langauge filled and very longwinded)

    @!ByTmE: I want to know if its true of what my parents say about China, like eating the unborn recently aborted infants for example. My parents actually believed that crap. I like China as a whole, it is one of my favorite countries And if I got the chance to visit the place just ot see the scenery and not have ot oworry of politics and other problems, I'll take it inside of a heartbeat. But I want to know if its true.

    The things said about China, giving their children away for example. Mom said that if a family has a daughter, they have to give her up for adoption, unless its a boy child, in which case they kill the next child ot be born.

    I found nothing mentioning that on several OCP articles through google. which makes even less sense to me now.

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    Interesting topic, my friend!

    Personally, I'm interested in Indian culture, and their history which traces back to.... unknown years. Plus, I like the fact that most of them are vegetarians! I have a fair curiousity about the Africans too.

    I think the eating of foetus might have come from the impression that Chinese eats "everything".
    Last edited by remember_Cedric; 12-02-10 at 12:45 AM.
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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    The things said about China, giving their children away for example. Mom said that if a family has a daughter, they have to give her up for adoption, unless its a boy child, in which case they kill the next child ot be born.
    The Chinese traditionally have a strong preference for boys, and the one-child policy is seen as the catalyst leading to the abortion, abandonment or murder of baby girls. If I remember correctly, there is a heavy penalty if a family have more than a child, and probably only the wealthier people could afford the penalty.

    Not sure about the giving away cases, but it used to happen in Singapore too. It typically happens when a family had too many children and it is not well-to-do enough to do support all of them; the same background most probably applies. As sad as it is, it is a practical move to lessen the burden on the family while ensuring all the kids (including the one given away) could live a better life.
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    @!Cederic: well hello to you too old friend!

    @!Guo Xiang: Good points, well seen indeed. Yet to me it makes little sense. Guess I'm not as learned as I should beof the eastern cultures, personally I'd care less of any goverment or laws or whatever, I just liek the culture and the history really. Heck, I'd buy a few TV series again, but how to get over this culture barrier my parents have set up. I'm clueless now on what to believe or not to beielvi, I've given on on some people, but not many.

    I'm never giving up on my parents, that is for sure. Though I want to know how exactly to stay tactful and give off pointers of things being exaggerated. and yeahm, like Cederic mentioned, sometimes the Chinese will eat anything (like Squid for example), but i know for a fact they don;t eat their own young!
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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Some seemingly irrelevant, but quite practical questions - how old are you, and are your family overseas Han Chinese?

    If you're rather young, i.e. still in school, it doesn't really matter how much proof you dig up or what facts you can unearth, you're never going to change your parents minds unless someone they really respect from outside speaks to them. If your family is not even Chinese, then the chances are even lower (because there's no underlying reason to want to like China), and I'd just recommend you tolerate it until you're old enough to move out or something. With parents it's normally not so much who is right or wrong, but who must be seen to be right. There are exceptions, of course, but your parents don't sound like the open-minded type. Some things are not really worth disturbing the peace in the family for, especially if it's just for the right to watch a handful of Chinese serials. In Chinese we say "Kar Wo Man Si Hing", if the family gets along everything is merry. Even if they do not appreciate the original of the phrase I'm sure you'll all benefit from the wisdom behind it.

    Now if you wanted to marry a Chinese girl/guy, then it'd be worth fighting for.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    These are two totally separate issues; the first (forced abortions) has some actual basis behind it, but the second (fetal cannibalism) is an urban myth.

    Forced abortions:

    There have been credible, documented cases of forced abortions, yes. These cases of forced abortions are relatively rare, primarily in rural areas, and extremely illegal.

    The entire issue comes from China's "One Child Policy", which dictates families are only allowed to have a single child. This policy springs from a (successful) attempt to control China's problem over-population; it dictates that each family is only allowed to have a single child, and levies very heavy fines against families that have more. This has caused a number of problems, such as gender imbalances due to the traditional preference for a male child, and others. In recent years, the policy has been relaxed to allow families in rural areas to have 2 children (if the first was a girl), and ethnic minorities are exempt from this policy.

    The policy holds local government officials responsible for implementing the policy, and their success in do so has historically been one of several yardsticks by which they are considered for promotion. According to Chinese law, government officials are only allowed to levy fines against families who break this law, and/or implement civil punishment such as taking away their jobs (if they have government jobs, etc.). However, there have been many credible, documented cases of rural officials forcing women on their second pregnancies to have abortions and/or undergo sterilization, in order to keep their 'success rate' in implementing the "One Child Policy" high and thereby improve their chances at promotion. This is against both Chinese law and national policy, and the central government has repeatedly issued edicts proclaiming that doing so is very illegal. However, in many rural areas, the rule of law is relatively weak, and there is insufficient oversight over the actions of rural officials.

    Although it still exists, this problem has improved significantly in recent years, because of a combination of factors, such as the central government has been relaxing various aspects of the "One Child Policy", the increasingly bad press and widespread popular anger at these stories when posted on the internet, and other factors.

    So, to recap: Yes, there have been forced abortions in China, but it is definitely illegal, not the norm, and primarily in rural areas where the rule of law is not strong. Levying fines is much, much more common.

    Eating fetuses:

    This is an urban rumor which partially springs from the reputation of how Chinese people (especially in Guangdong province) eat everything: As the saying goes, 'Everything which flies in the sky, crawls on the ground, or swims in the sea.'

    There have been internet rumors of this even in China, and these rumors have uniformly been met with absolute horror. The origin of the most widely spread images of a "Chinese man eating fetuses" springs from a series of photographs taken in 2000 by Shanghai artist Zhu Yu; he claims that he illegally stole the fetus from a medical school, and photographed himself 'eating' it as part of a "performance art" exhibition he submitted as a shock-entry to a Shanghainese art festival (his entry was rejected). It is highly unlikely that he stole and actually ate a fetus, however, as both the theft and cannibalism are crimes which would send him in prison for a lengthy period of time.

    His pictures were spread very widely, and reappear time and time again; they have been used in a Malaysian newspaper article claiming that it was a depiction of people in Taiwan eating babies for "$50-$70", and in articles claiming that it was a 'health supplement' in China easily purchased from abortion clinics, etc.

    To date, there have been no credibly documented cases of human fetal cannibalism in China, and it definitely is something which would horrify every single Chinese person I've ever spoken to.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 12-02-10 at 08:30 AM.
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    The babies eating thing may also come from the tradition of consuming ginseng. Don't old & really high quality ginseng tend to look like human fetus? I can't remember where I read that. It might be a wuxia novel.

    This is an urban rumor which partially springs from the reputation of how Chinese people (especially in Guangdong province) eat everything: As the saying goes, 'Everything which flies in the sky, crawls on the ground, or swims in the sea.'
    That (plus things that grow out of the ground) is actually the healthiest way to eat. Ask any health nut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    These are two totally separate issues; the first (forced abortions) has some actual basis behind it, but the second (fetal cannibalism) is an urban myth.

    Forced abortions:

    There have been credible, documented cases of forced abortions, yes. These cases of forced abortions are relatively rare, primarily in rural areas, and extremely illegal.

    The entire issue comes from China's "One Child Policy", which dictates families are only allowed to have a single child. This policy springs from a (successful) attempt to control China's problem over-population; it dictates that each family is only allowed to have a single child, and levies very heavy fines against families that have more. This has caused a number of problems, such as gender imbalances due to the traditional preference for a male child, and others. In recent years, the policy has been relaxed to allow families in rural areas to have 2 children (if the first was a girl), and ethnic minorities are exempt from this policy.

    The policy holds local government officials responsible for implementing the policy, and their success in do so has historically been one of several yardsticks by which they are considered for promotion. According to Chinese law, government officials are only allowed to levy fines against families who break this law, and/or implement civil punishment such as taking away their jobs (if they have government jobs, etc.). However, there have been many credible, documented cases of rural officials forcing women on their second pregnancies to have abortions and/or undergo sterilization, in order to keep their 'success rate' in implementing the "One Child Policy" high and thereby improve their chances at promotion. This is against both Chinese law and national policy, and the central government has repeatedly issued edicts proclaiming that doing so is very illegal. However, in many rural areas, the rule of law is relatively weak, and there is insufficient oversight over the actions of rural officials.

    Although it still exists, this problem has improved significantly in recent years, because of a combination of factors, such as the central government has been relaxing various aspects of the "One Child Policy", the increasingly bad press and widespread popular anger at these stories when posted on the internet, and other factors.

    So, to recap: Yes, there have been forced abortions in China, but it is definitely illegal, not the norm, and primarily in rural areas where the rule of law is not strong. Levying fines is much, much more common.

    Eating fetuses:

    This is an urban rumor which partially springs from the reputation of how Chinese people (especially in Guangdong province) eat everything: As the saying goes, 'Everything which flies in the sky, crawls on the ground, or swims in the sea.'

    There have been internet rumors of this even in China, and these rumors have uniformly been met with absolute horror. The origin of the most widely spread images of a "Chinese man eating fetuses" springs from a series of photographs taken in 2000 by Shanghai artist Zhu Yu; he claims that he illegally stole the fetus from a medical school, and photographed himself 'eating' it as part of a "performance art" exhibition he submitted as a shock-entry to a Shanghainese art festival (his entry was rejected). It is highly unlikely that he stole and actually ate a fetus, however, as both the theft and cannibalism are crimes which would send him in prison for a lengthy period of time.

    His pictures were spread very widely, and reappear time and time again; they have been used in a Malaysian newspaper article claiming that it was a depiction of people in Taiwan eating babies for "$50-$70", and in articles claiming that it was a 'health supplement' in China easily purchased from abortion clinics, etc.

    To date, there have been no credibly documented cases of human fetal cannibalism in China, and it definitely is something which would horrify every single Chinese person I've ever spoken to.
    Thanks for the detailed post, I think this is an excellent example of how selective, biased exposures and taking information out of context can shapes people's opinions.

    To the OP, I'm not going to sugar coat this, but your parents sounds extremely ignorant, if not pretty much outright racist.

    Some people dislike the Chinese government for whatever reason, and sometimes the "dislike" spills over to the culture and people. In your case I wonder if it is simply the reverse, they just outright hate Chinese and anything related to China, and it is so very convenient that they can hide their racism behind politics.

    PS. Do they also get mad if you order shows from Taiwan that are set in China?
    Last edited by Dimeron; 12-02-10 at 12:12 PM.

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    @!Ian Liew: I'm 25, visiting my folks over the holiday season here in the States from Miami Fl9roida. Sometimes we have big debates. Like this one for example...

    @!Ren Wo Xing: Thank you very muchly for a well detailed post that answered many of my questions. I'm now more curious then ever of this country as a whole. I love the culture of the place, that is what draws me to it. personally I'd care less of who runs the country, i just want to go there and experiance the culture!

    @!Dimeron: I'm not borthered by sugar coating, I really want answers is all. My mom does sound racist, that i can tell and understand. But I am unsure of a Taiwanese seris set in China, and how they'd feel about my buying same. I'd try to explain to mom, 'its actually a Taiwanese series, just, set in ancient China'. For all i know I'll get kicked from the dinner table (yes, when one visits their folks, the folks have rules of the house eve ntheir own kids have to folow, not even my older siblings try to get around them!)

    Now mom said I could watch some series online, but not buy them? personally I'd liek to buy a few more Period Dramas, be they set in China and made in Taiwan, or the other way around, like I said, I don't care for politics, I just want to see some good reallistic movies and TV series. Now my mom wonders why I ordered HBO Asia/Arabia
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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    @ Lianazhu,

    You are 25 and do not live with your parents. So, why do you need to change your parents' mind about what they think of China? Let them be. You can buy your China series and keep it in your Miami home.
    Last edited by kidd; 12-21-10 at 02:21 AM.
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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lianazhu View Post
    Are we actually going to go into this topic? (this is actually false by the way, only a few cases have been reported. my own parish priest commented on it too. but I will not go into this topic as my personal thoughtsd of the matter are rather..... langauge filled and very longwinded)

    The things said about China, giving their children away for example. Mom said that if a family has a daughter, they have to give her up for adoption, unless its a boy child, in which case they kill the next child ot be born.
    But that is exactly the point. There are all different types crazy people everywhere in the world that do some crazy horrendous things. Can we say there has never been a forced abortion or abandonment of baby girls? No. Can I guarantee you that there has never been a case of fetus eating? No (I'm sure there are some crazy people out there...hell, you can't even say there isn't any case of fetus eating in the States). Can we say that there has never been a Priest who has molested a child? Not likely. But are those things, by any means, the popular thing to do? Probably not (refer to RWX's post). They are mostly isolated cases. Unfortunately, with the way the media works these days, isolated cases are the ones that get reported and the cases that people happen to hear about.

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    Senior Member ByTmE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    @ Lianazhu,

    You are 25 and do not live with your parents. So, why do you need to change your parents' mind about what they think of China. Let them be. You can buy your China series and keep it in your Miami home.
    I agree with kidd. I understand that you care and want to "enlighten" them. But pehaps it's best the you just tolerate and accept them for who they are. I figure they're not outright singling China out all the time to specifically disparage it. If they are, you might have a bigger problem on your hands that may have nothing to do with China. However, if they are only insulting when it's brought up by others, especially you, then maybe you should not try to bring up topics that invite that kind of attitude in your parents. There are certain topics that I just don't bring up with my parents because their POV...well I'm quite aware of and don't care for it. I am not escaping or copping out a problem here, just that I think that some topics are not worth getting into arguments for that involve the people I love.
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