East Heretic and West Poison - who was the better dad?

[Ken Cheng]

In terms of martial arts, East Heretic Wong Yerk See and West Poison Au Yeung Fung were more or less equals, but which one was the better parent? I would argue that Au Yeung Fung was a better dad to Au Yeung Hak (and perhaps Yeung Gor) than Wong Yerk See was a dad to Wong Yung. Wong Yerk See and Wong Yung were affectionate, but their relationship was rocky and fraught with conflict. Au Yeung Fung never had such problems with his sons.

A part of it might be the gender difference (although usually, isn't it fathers/sons that have these problems?) between Wong Yerk See and Wong Yung, but taken at face value, Au Yeung Fung outdid Wong Yerk See as a father.

[Dirt]

One was negligent the other over-indulgent.

[Ian Liew]

I don't think OYF was over-indulgent. If he was a great upright man of good moral standing and had a kid like OYK then probably, but for all his faults OYK probably just took after his dad/uncle. OYK wasn't spoiled, incompetent, lazy or anything - he had good respect for his uncle, never threw a tantrum, was well-learned and had decent martial arts. His main problem was a weakness for pretty girls, but most of the pretty girls he met seemed happy to go along with him anyway, and OYF probably didn't mind grunts who were easy on the eye. OYF and OYK (and later YG) certainly had a great relationship. We, however, don't really know much about HYS's relationship with HR, though. They looked to outsmart each other, but HR took on a lot from her father, and really seemed to respect him, while HYS really loved his daughter (probably more than he realised). Neither parent really brought up a deliquent child, but I think OYF/OYK had much more ease in connecting and discussing personal issues than HYS and HR.

In the adaptations, the only time when OYK seemed uncomfortable with OYF's way of doing things was when OYF wanted to burn all his maids together with H7G and GJ on the boat, but I'm not sure if he had such hesitation in the novels.

[Trien Chieu]

How could West Poison winning in the poll?
Wong Yung is the heroine whereas Au Yeung Hak is a serial rapist. How could West Poison the better father?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

If we look in detail at how the two men approached fatherhood we can see a lot of similarities.

Eastern Heretic felt responsible for his wife's death so went out of his way to indulge his daughter, even to the point of allowing her to openly defy him. I suspect he may even have enjoyed it.
He recognised his own genius in her and gave her the access to his vast knowledge.
As morals and empathy didn't mean much to him he didn't spend a lot of time teaching her these.


Western Venom likewise felt guilty at not being able to acknowledge his son so bent over backwards to spoil him, turning a blind eye to his rapist behaviour.
Knowing the limitations of his son's ability he refrained from teaching him the inner secrets of Toad stance even though this risked making the art extinct.

It would be easy to say Eastern Heretic was the better father as WY turned out so well, but we have to remember that a lot of her morality only developed after she met GJ.
Without him she would have became a spoilt, unsympathetic brat much like GF, but a lot smarter.

[tape]

Maybe the problem is that they're both immoral (on evil from society's view) people with nearly all the resources in the world already. It's hard to instill the traditional values on your children when you're in that strange position. They both have nearly unlimited wealth and power, are not interested in teaching their offspring to be "good" people, and both only have aspirations that they probably don't want their children to have. The only thing they still want is to be the best martial artist in the world, and we know they both love their children too much to want them to have the same goals.

So what's left? Convince them to have a family? HYS's heart probably died when his wife did, and Ouyang Feng isn't exactly a good role model for a family man. Encourage them to find a passion? Ouyang Ke is one of the most culturally learned and best martial artist for his age, ditto for Huang Rong.

They gave them the necessary intelligence, skill, and love that they would need for the world, and was always there in the back if they needed anything more. The values that they imparted were what they truly believed in, so it's more judging them as characters rather than parenting.

Though it's probably due to gender, one area that OYF has him beat is that he supported his nephew's marriage decision where HYS did not. Granted it was Huang Rong, but I think Ouyang Feng would've been fine with OYK marrying anyone he chose, whereas HYS couldn't stand the thought of HR marrying a dumb oaf.

[BlackRaven]

I have a feeling that OYF spent more time with his son than HYS did with his daughter. OYF took a lot of care to instill martial arts knowledge to his son, in a safe and caring way. Both Greats obviously loved their offspring, so I feel that time spent should be the deciding factor.

On a related note, I heard that Ouyang Ke was a lot stronger in the first edition of LOCH than in later editions. Does anyone know the details of this? Did OYF teach him Toad Stance in the first edition? Or maybe OYK himself was more talented in the 1st edition?

[Ren Wo Xing]

The novel specifically stated at some point that Ouyang Ke never 'forced' any of the girls. Which was weird, given that we know for a fact that he kidnapped them. Maybe it was kidnap and woo, and release if they wouldn't budge?

[9ybg_CLAW]

The novel specifically stated at some point that Ouyang Ke never 'forced' any of the girls. Which was weird, given that we know for a fact that he kidnapped them. Maybe it was kidnap and woo, and release if they wouldn't budge?

Probably... or maybe everyone (other than the ones whose names got mentioned in the book) just fell in love with him so he did "need" to force any of them?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

The novel specifically stated at some point that Ouyang Ke never 'forced' any of the girls. Which was weird, given that we know for a fact that he kidnapped them. Maybe it was kidnap and woo, and release if they wouldn't budge?

I haven't read the novel, but the word 'forced' can be quite subjective.

Did he just not use physical force, or did he not coerced the girls at all?

I remember in the 80's adaptation he uses snakes to threaten girls into complying with him.

His assault on Mu Nian Ci definitely had force in it.

[tape]

I think he wouldn't do anything if they firmly said no. (What he does afterwards...I wouldn't know)

But he would probably try to get them to drink a bunch of wine. Flatter them. Take advantage of them the moment their firm no turns into a meek silence.

Basically what happens at highschool/college parties.

[AlamoRemebered]

If we look in detail at how the two men approached fatherhood we can see a lot of similarities.

Mandred, I think your analysis is spot on. There is a nice social commentary there on spoiled kids. Both fathers are incredibly wealthy and powerful, and yet feel particularly guilty about something so do everything in their power to spoil their kids. That being said, they ended up with particularly knowledgeable and talented kids, just also super selfish and entitled.

[charbydis]

WY was already born super-intelligent with great genes so how much of a role did HYS play in teaching her when he was not pining over his dead wife? On the other hand, OYK was OK but he was never going to be elite material. Yet OYF invested so much time and effort to train him into one of the most powerful youths of the time before GJ came along. Effort-wise, I feel that OYK got a lot more attention from OYF to mold him into normal healthy adult that could socialise/interact with others and make a name for himself after OYF dies, whereas I truly believe that WYS wanted to help WY on Peach Blossom Island forever as recluse hermit with no one else but him in her life. I just find HYS the more selfish father but it could be the social norm between genders at the time.

[AlamoRemebered]

You might also add Wanyan Honglie to the father quality question. He's a horrible villain, but he's raising another man's son as his own heir, and it's not that he is just doing it to please the mother, as he continues to support Yang Kang even after the death of his mother Bao Xiruou.

There is an interesting theme in LOCH about paternity and heir issues being a major driver of all the drama and conflict. Obviously Yang Kang and Guo Jing start right away being severed from their fathers and Wanyan adds to the mix. The Ouyang family situation is complex, maybe that is why Feng is so grouchy/evil. The Eastern Heretic may not follow society's conventions, but since he is a widower and has only a daughter and drove off all his disciples, he has no heir. The other major father in the story is Genghis Khan. GK's eldest son, Jochi, wasn't even believed to be his actual blood son (his mom was kidnapped for a while before he was born), and this led to all sorts of succession issues after the death of GK (there's a great movie Mongol about the early life of GK that has a great scene with him rescuing his wife and finding her pregnant). GK was sort of in search of his true heir, and ended up picking Tolui. Then the story ends with the orphan Yang Guo, who obviously has a strange relationship with his paternity.

I don't think there are any characters with a traditional father-son(heir) relationship in LOCH, a major cornerstone of the Confucian society.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't think there are any characters with a traditional father-son(heir) relationship in LOCH, a major cornerstone of the Confucian society.

There's Luk Sing Fung and his son, Luk Gwoon Ying. They had a more-or-less traditional father/son relationship.

[Khanhleesi]

I feel like East Heretic wasn't around much (wasn't he actively avoiding his daughter/her husband at the beginning of ROCH and didn't visit any of them during the 16 years?) while West Poison would definitely attend soccer games and piano recitals no matter how awful and untalented his children. The former got lucky with HR (imagine if a descendent like Guo Fu came about a generation early).

[Ian Liew]

I feel like East Heretic wasn't around much (wasn't he actively avoiding his daughter/her husband at the beginning of ROCH and didn't visit any of them during the 16 years?) while West Poison would definitely attend soccer games and piano recitals no matter how awful and untalented his children. The former got lucky with HR (imagine if a descendent like Guo Fu came about a generation early).

While he wasn't around much pre-ROCH, it was stated, I think, that he never left Peach Blossom Island during Huang Rong's childhood. He had sworn an oath to never leave the island until he had achieved his "wish". He subsequently broke his oath when he was forced to leave to look for his daughter. The conversation father and daughter had when they first met at Returning Cloud Manor mentioned it, but I don't recall if it mentioned explicitly what the conditions were for Huang Yaoshi before he would leave the island, just that he he never achieved it. Huang Rong felt really guilty after that, as her liberties had forced her father to break his own oath or something.

[Khanhleesi]

Thanks for clarifying ^. I really need to replenish my LOCH knowledge.

[tape]

While he wasn't around much pre-ROCH, it was stated, I think, that he never left Peach Blossom Island during Huang Rong's childhood. He had sworn an oath to never leave the island until he had achieved his "wish". He subsequently broke his oath when he was forced to leave to look for his daughter. The conversation father and daughter had when they first met at Returning Cloud Manor mentioned it, but I don't recall if it mentioned explicitly what the conditions were for Huang Yaoshi before he would leave the island, just that he he never achieved it. Huang Rong felt really guilty after that, as her liberties had forced her father to break his own oath or something.

I don't really remember the oath either, but it's consistent with his desire to commit suicide on the ship. He probably just wanted to stay on the island forever next to his dead wife's coffin until Huang Rong was of age to be betrothed, then sail off and drown in the ocean.

Quite the overlooked romantic!

[Ken Cheng]

I feel like East Heretic wasn't around much (wasn't he actively avoiding his daughter/her husband at the beginning of ROCH and didn't visit any of them during the 16 years?)

Not them, specifically, but Gwok Jing's teacher Ohr Jen Ngok. I don't know what it is with those two old fogies: maybe their astrological signs didn't match or something.