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Thread: End-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai vs. End-of-LOCH Gwok Jing

  1. #21
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    There are lines of Hong Qigong at least thinking he improved a lot from LOCH to ROCH, and since they improved from pre-LOCH to LOCH also I assume they just always improve. There aren't many characters that seem to regress in martial arts (maybe endurance and stamina but not martial arts).
    They do improve a lot, but they also get OLD, which reduces their overall ability by quite a bit.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    They do improve a lot, but they also get OLD, which reduces their overall ability by quite a bit.
    I think they are a lot more powerful, but of course no longer have the same stamina or endurance. I think Yideng vs GWM is a pretty good example in that he can actually keep up with GWM even if he would lose due to old age eventually.

  3. #23
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Actually during 16 years, H7Q and OYF could have improved more than YD and HYS, since the former 2 had 9 Yin and the latter 2 didn't (is that right?). that might help explain why all 4 Greats are still equal at end of ROCH even though HYS/YD had 16 more years to practice.

  4. #24
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I think they are a lot more powerful, but of course no longer have the same stamina or endurance. I think Yideng vs GWM is a pretty good example in that he can actually keep up with GWM even if he would lose due to old age eventually.
    actually, it said that GWM's palm strength was much greater than Yideng's, but due to GWM's distractions, he didn't perform his best. Otherwise YD would have more trouble.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    actually, it said that GWM's palm strength was much greater than Yideng's, but due to GWM's distractions, he didn't perform his best. Otherwise YD would have more trouble.
    Well his palm strength is pretty much greater than anyone's. Yideng made up for it in other areas likely.

    Sorry to bring up that GWM doubling comment again, but that surely means Yideng improved a crap ton just by being able to keep up.

  6. #26
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    That the Greats continued to improve after LOCH is not at all surprising, but claims of *geometric* or *exponential* improvement will require more persuasive evidence.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Actually during 16 years, H7Q and OYF could have improved more than YD and HYS, since the former 2 had 9 Yin and the latter 2 didn't (is that right?). that might help explain why all 4 Greats are still equal at end of ROCH even though HYS/YD had 16 more years to practice.
    H7G had the Sanskrit healing portion for sure, as did Yideng while OYF had the messed up version, but I think it said something like his martial arts genius was actually able to make use of it somehow, but I assume not as much as H7G or Yideng.

  8. #28
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well his palm strength is pretty much greater than anyone's. Yideng made up for it in other areas likely.
    Other areas such as lucky that his opponent was performing sub-par

    Sorry to bring up that GWM doubling comment again, but that surely means Yideng improved a crap ton just by being able to keep up.
    That's if you believe GWM really doubled, which is at question.

    I'm of the opinion that GWM did improve a lot (not doubled), but he was not at Great-level pre-16 years (his power was, but his overall ability wasn't), so with his improvements, he can edge out a Great slightly.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That the Greats continued to improve after LOCH is not at all surprising, but claims of *geometric* or *exponential* improvement will require more persuasive evidence.
    Don't think anyone has made such claims. The most anyone really claims seems to be linear.

  10. #30
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    H7G had the Sanskrit healing portion for sure, as did Yideng while OYF had the messed up version, but I think it said something like his martial arts genius was actually able to make use of it somehow, but I assume not as much as H7G or Yideng.
    The novel said H7G improved a lot due to 9 Yin, but did not mention about YD. So I assume YD's MA level didn't benefit from 9 Yin a la H7G.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Other areas such as lucky that his opponent was performing sub-par



    That's if you believe GWM really doubled, which is at question.

    I'm of the opinion that GWM did improve a lot (not doubled), but he was not at Great-level pre-16 years (his power was, but his overall ability wasn't), so with his improvements, he can edge out a Great slightly.
    I was thinking more along the lines of more exquisite technique and refined qi, but he's an old man I'm sure he'll take what he can get

    I agree with your judgment of GWM. It makes the Guo Jing vs GWM + mercenaries make more sense and GWM always had much more trouble than is expected of a Great against inferior fighters. Ni Moxing was giving him a great fight back then.

  12. #32
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Ni Moxing was giving him a great fight back then.
    The list is endless. He got slapped by Ma Guangzuo, and he was very impressed by Zhao Zhijing + Yin Zhiping/Zhen Zhibing!
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The novel said H7G improved a lot due to 9 Yin, but did not mention about YD. So I assume YD's MA level didn't benefit from 9 Yin a la H7G.
    But there was a reason to note H7G's martial arts level since he was dueling with Ouyang Feng. Readers would of course want some comparison of the characters they've come to know in LOCH. Yideng didn't appear until way later in the story, and he has taken on the role of the enlightened monk rather than a wulin warrior so his martial arts level is not as applicable or as interesting.

    I don't think the lack of mentioning should mean too much since it makes sense why it was not mentioned compared to H7G.

  14. #34
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Don't think anyone has made such claims. The most anyone really claims seems to be linear.
    Not directly, no, but if you accept that the Golden Wheel Monk, who was supposedly equal to the Greats before the 16-year interlude, actually *doubled* his abilities during that interlude, and the Greats still more or less kept pace with him, then that's pretty much believing that the Greats geometrically (if not exponentially) doubled their abilities.

  15. #35
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    If we fuzz around with wuxiamath, if GWM is 90% of a Great and inner power determines say 60% of his prowess, then doubling his inner power makes him ~140% of pre-16 year Great. If a Great improves say 20% in that 16 year frame the fight makes a lot of sense since we have a 120% vs 140%.

    That's completely rough estimations, but it's how I (kind of) make sense of what happened.
    Last edited by tape; 12-13-10 at 03:47 PM.

  16. #36
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    But there was a reason to note H7G's martial arts level since he was dueling with Ouyang Feng. Readers would of course want some comparison of the characters they've come to know in LOCH. Yideng didn't appear until way later in the story, and he has taken on the role of the enlightened monk rather than a wulin warrior so his martial arts level is not as applicable or as interesting.

    I don't think the lack of mentioning should mean too much since it makes sense why it was not mentioned compared to H7G.
    I guess to assume that YD didn't improve a lot is more consistent with JY's intent to have all 4 Greats equal.

    Besides, YD just seems weaker than HYS, who didn't even have the 9 Yin benefit. It doesn't add up if we assume YD actually improved more than HYS.

    I don't mean that YD is really weaker than HYS, but whenever they appeared, JY made HYS seem more glorious and impressive, while YD suffers from a lot of things.

    For example, compare YD vs GWM with HYS vs Yang Guo. HYS gets to tie with YG, while YD looks out of breath vs GWM.

    Speaking of GWM, HYS gets to knock his wheel shaking (in the forest), while YD loses his breath.

    YD gets nailed by QQR (willingly). HYS beats the shit out of LMC (twice).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  17. #37
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I guess to assume that YD didn't improve a lot is more consistent with JY's intent to have all 4 Greats equal.

    Besides, YD just seems weaker than HYS, who didn't even have the 9 Yin benefit. It doesn't add up if we assume YD actually improved more than HYS.

    I don't mean that YD is really weaker than HYS, but whenever they appeared, JY made HYS seem more glorious and impressive, while YD suffers from a lot of things.

    For example, compare YD vs GWM with HYS vs Yang Guo. HYS gets to tie with YG, while YD looks out of breath vs GWM.

    Speaking of GWM, HYS gets to knock his wheel shaking (in the forest), while YD loses his breath.

    YD gets nailed by QQR (willingly). HYS beats the shit out of LMC (twice).
    Much of this is probably attributable to Wong Yerk See remaining an active wulin combatant (albeit an aged one), while 1 Deng had spent the preceding five or six decades as a pacifist monk.

  18. #38
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    I mean I understand JY's intent to keep them equal, but I think that only applies if they were all still alive. By the end of ROCH, I don't think it's a travesty or strange that peak OYF and H7G are slightly weaker than peak HYS and peak YD considering they died 16 years earlier. It has nothing to do with their inabilities or that HYS or YD somehow shot past them, just that they died, which is a pretty big obstacle to overcome

    Speaking of HYS looking cool and always seemingly more powerful, it seems that way in LOCH too, though close reading makes me think that he's actually one of the weaker Greats. He just doesn't get in messy situations. Yideng was slightly stronger than them in pre-LOCH, and could only increase the gap even if only slightly with the addition of Xiantian Gong. Ouyang Feng is always noted for his martial arts genius (HYS's intelligence spreads across so many areas you can only imagine it's not as optimal as OYF), and his viciousness and unorthodox methods can only be a benefit. HYS and H7G are arrogant and righteous respectively, which can only hurt them in a fight.

    If I had to rank them judging by adaptations or just by who I feel would win, I'd probably pick rank it HYS OYF H7G YD but in actuality I think it should be YD OYF H7G/HYS

  19. #39
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    actually, it said that GWM's palm strength was much greater than Yideng's, but due to GWM's distractions, he didn't perform his best. Otherwise YD would have more trouble.
    More like because of the distractions Yideng was actually winning by a half-step. Perhaps GWM would be winning by a half step without distractions but that remains to be seen (as opposed to said). Especially since GWM, despite his "unparalleled palm strength" failed to push forward or shift Yideng back at all.

    Much hullaboo is made about the mist gathering around Yideng's head (nevermind how that's a common thing whenever there's high level internal energy exertion) but noise isn't made about how Yideng smiled and took a step forward the moment GWM was distracted. Yideng might be marginally weaker than GWM, but it was still close enough that a distraction made it easy for Yideng to push him.

    Furthermore while YG never found an opponent with as much internal force as GWM, YG also was astounded by how profound Yideng internal energy was. There's simply more to it than just forcefulness.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 12-13-10 at 04:21 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Much hullaboo is made about the mist gathering around Yideng's head (nevermind how that's a common thing whenever there's high level internal energy exertion) but noise isn't made about how Yideng smiled and took a step forward the moment GWM was distracted. Yideng might be marginally weaker than GWM, but it was still close enough that a distraction made it easy for Yideng to push him.
    That kind of distraction can get you killed in a fight.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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