End-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai vs. End-of-LOCH Gwok Jing

[ChronoReverse]

And indeed it would've been disastrous for GWM.

Still, they were deadlocked in their fight even before that. Neither could block each others' blasts and had to dodge. Under that kind of circumstance, a more powerful palm attack isn't any advantage. An interesting LDA battle though even if it wasn't loudly broadcasted as such.

[PJ]

I think GWM was distracted from the start. He was sad and shocked about GX's "death" to begin with, and motivated to fight. Not the best mood to be in going into a major fight.

[Exodus]

YG was going easy on HYS. Is totally different when fighting friendly or as deadly enemies. If YG wanted HYS dead he would have been toast which is kinda funny considering how proud a person HYS is

[Ken Cheng]

YG was going easy on HYS. Is totally different when fighting friendly or as deadly enemies. If YG wanted HYS dead he would have been toast which is kinda funny considering how proud a person HYS is

Proof?

Show us the proof, or it isn't true.

[tape]

Proof?

Show us the proof, or it isn't true.

The world was round before people could prove it...

The way his statement was phrased inflates YG's abilities, but his statement is more likely true than not.

[ChronoReverse]

He only said that Sad Palms is at the level of GJ's XL18P. If this is somehow admitting that he's overall inferior, there's more to to the implication...

HYS's signature technique is Divine Finger Snap. It's not admitting overall inferiority to say that one's palm side-skill is inferior.

[tape]

He only said that Sad Palms is at the level of GJ's XL18P. If this is somehow admitting that he's overall inferior, there's more to to the implication...

HYS's signature technique is Divine Finger Snap. It's not admitting overall inferiority to say that one's palm side-skill is inferior.

I agree from that one statement alone it can't be deduced that HYS is weaker than YG. But other events in the novel indicate that he most likely is, namely YD at best being equal to GWM while YG is quite decisively better.

[ChronoReverse]

I agree from that one statement alone it can't be deduced that HYS is weaker than YG. But other events in the novel indicate that he most likely is, namely YD at best being equal to GWM while YG is quite decisively better.

YG won in a situation where arguably GWM was distracted as well being on a burning and collapsing platform.

A distracted GWM was also starting to lose pretty clearly again Yideng when distracted (Yideng was able to smile and take two half-steps forward). Not the level YG displayed of course but the ability to beat a distracted GWM (who is even stated in-text that his concentration sucks) is hard to use as a gauge.

Definitely there's more evidence that YG is a half step above HYS but the objection in the first place was to this:

YG was going easy on HYS. Is totally different when fighting friendly or as deadly enemies. If YG wanted HYS dead he would have been toast which is kinda funny considering how proud a person HYS is

Which is silly because there's no way YG could curbstomp HYS.

[tape]

Definitely there's more evidence that YG is a half step above HYS but the objection in the first place was to this:Which is silly because there's no way YG could curbstomp HYS.

There would have been better ways to phrase it, but in a duel to the death YG would win 100% of the time.

[ChronoReverse]

Even with a half-level of advantage, no one can claim 100% winning chance. A single mistake or a surprise new technique can turn the tide as being put on disadvantage is a road to losing. I believe that YG would win most of the time but his chances would only touch 90% at best.

[tape]

Even with a half-level of advantage, no one can claim 100% winning chance. A single mistake or a surprise new technique can turn the tide as being put on disadvantage is a road to losing. I believe that YG would win most of the time but his chances would only touch 90% at best.

90% is dominating in pretty much every pursuit. Even 80% is probably good enough to claim you will stomp your opponent.

[Ken Cheng]

The Greats at the end of ROCH were all so closely match that I don't believe anybody had more than 60% winning odds over anybody else, and yes, that applies to Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor as well (in fact, they're probably the only two who have it as high as 60%; everybody else was probably closer to 50%).

[tape]

The Greats at the end of ROCH were all so closely match that I don't believe anybody had more than 60% winning odds over anybody else, and yes, that applies to Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor as well (in fact, they're probably the only two who have it as high as 60%; everybody else was probably closer to 50%).

It all depends on how you view GWM and QQR. GWM thought he was going to lose within 100 stances to Yang Guo, and if you believe GWM is slightly better than the old Greats (which I believe), then Yang Guo would likely beat the old Greats in the same or less amount of time which places the old Greats quite a bit behind. 100-200 stances suggests a decent sized gap.

Another thing to note is that GWM killed QQR. Killing somebody is pretty hard if they are near your level, usually you can just defend and run away. Yideng supposedly would only win by half a stance which is a far cry from being able to kill him.

Now I don't believe Yang Guo/Guo Jing overall are THAT much stronger than the old Greats, but having 5% superior technique here and 3% superior inner power there plus youth and endurance adds up to victory in 80-90% of the cases. It depends on how we view fighting I suppose. A guy who can lift 1000 pounds will always beat a guy who can lift 990 pounds in a weightlifting competition despite the only a 1% difference in ability, while someone who is undoubtedly better than someone in chess will still lose a game here and there.

[Ken Cheng]

It all depends on how you view GWM and QQR. GWM thought he was going to lose within 100 stances to Yang Guo, and if you believe GWM is slightly better than the old Greats (which I believe), then Yang Guo would likely beat the old Greats in the same or less amount of time which places the old Greats quite a bit behind. 100-200 stances suggests a decent sized gap.

The Golden Wheel Monk was one of the *worst* judges of his own skill vis a vis other fighters, typically either grossly overestimating or underestimating his chances against opponents, often based on limited knowledge of just what his enemies were capable of. I'd take *any* self-assessment by the Golden Wheel Monk with a nice big helping of salt.

The thing with the fight against Yeung Gor was that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't losing that fight, from start to finish, in pathetic fashion. The Golden Wheel Monk had the upper hand for fairly large portions of that fight (particularly the beginning), and even just before he did lose, he still had a chance to win. This fight was no cakewalk for Yeung Gor.

Another thing to note is that GWM killed QQR. Killing somebody is pretty hard if they are near your level, usually you can just defend and run away. Yideng supposedly would only win by half a stance which is a far cry from being able to kill him.

Kau Cheen Yan could probably last a long time against many opponents because of his hing gung specialty. I would surmise that that's what allowed Kau Cheen Yan to hold out for so long against the Golden Wheel Monk because in terms of sheer power, Kau was outclassed.

Now I don't believe Yang Guo/Guo Jing overall are THAT much stronger than the old Greats, but having 5% superior technique here and 3% superior inner power there plus youth and endurance adds up to victory in 80-90% of the cases. It depends on how we view fighting I suppose. A guy who can lift 1000 pounds will always beat a guy who can lift 990 pounds in a weightlifting competition despite the only a 1% difference in ability, while someone who is undoubtedly better than someone in chess will still lose a game here and there.

An 8% difference in overall ability is no guarantee of anything. All it would take is a moment's carelessness or human error and that 8% advantage evaporates quickly.

[ChronoReverse]

Furthermore, even though GWM landed a lethal blow on QQR, QQR still got away from him. It's not as if GWM struck QQR and then just let him walk away.


It's also notable how quickly GWM's mental game breaks down. Other fighters, even when they find themselves at a disadvantage, still find ways to hold on and to continue to strive without losing concentration. GWM literally collapses in the face of difficulty to the point where when he was struck once by YG, he utterly crumpled and couldn't take any more blows from YG at all.

Even before that he actually feared he would lose when fighting a bare-handed YG with weaponry simply because he was distracted by his failure to overcome YG quickly and the burning platform. What a worthless excuse! As a Great he should know the power of using something like a sleeve as a weapon and it's not like YG wasn't anxious about GX.

[Ken Cheng]

Furthermore, even though GWM landed a lethal blow on QQR, QQR still got away from him. It's not as if GWM struck QQR and then just let him walk away.

I kind of wonder why the Golden Wheel Monk didn't pursue. Was the monk also injured, or did Kau just use his superior hing gung to ditch the monk?

[ChronoReverse]

Hard to guess without any information. For all we know GWM was about to kill QQR properly when the cavalry arrived. That doesn't seem likely though since GWM didn't encounter Yideng until later.

Honestly it seemed like a copout to make GWM seem threatening before the humiliation conga at the end of ROCH.

[tape]

The Golden Wheel Monk was one of the *worst* judges of his own skill vis a vis other fighters, typically either grossly overestimating or underestimating his chances against opponents, often based on limited knowledge of just what his enemies were capable of. I'd take *any* self-assessment by the Golden Wheel Monk with a nice big helping of salt.

The thing with the fight against Yeung Gor was that the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't losing that fight, from start to finish, in pathetic fashion. The Golden Wheel Monk had the upper hand for fairly large portions of that fight (particularly the beginning), and even just before he did lose, he still had a chance to win. This fight was no cakewalk for Yeung Gor.



Kau Cheen Yan could probably last a long time against many opponents because of his hing gung specialty. I would surmise that that's what allowed Kau Cheen Yan to hold out for so long against the Golden Wheel Monk because in terms of sheer power, Kau was outclassed.



An 8% difference in overall ability is no guarantee of anything. All it would take is a moment's carelessness or human error and that 8% advantage evaporates quickly.

GWM only had a chance because he threw his wheel at Guo Xiang. In the novel, Yang Guo didn't use Sad Palms in the beginning and just fought him with the random martial arts he had invented in the 16 years and was beating GWM. GWM was scared he was going to lose shortly and thus threw the wheel forcing Yang Guo to be at a disadvantageous position. It's not really a judgment of your own skill at that point, he plain knew he couldn't handle him pretty soon.

My point about QQR is that he was unable to even run from GWM without taking a deathblow even with his superior lightness kungfu. This makes GWM seem quite powerful.

As I said, in some pursuits 1% is enough to guarantee a victory while in something like fighting the amount you need to be superior to guarantee a victory is not quantifiable. Yang Guo has never shown to be careless or underperform in battle, so I see no reason to give randomly decide he would, just as I wouldn't expect Huang Yaoshi to choke either. The way to victory is clear for Yang Guo -- just overwhelm them with your youth and vigorous power. There is no strategy that a Great could use against him except just hoping he chokes, of which the chances are not very high.

[Exodus]

I kind of wonder why the Golden Wheel Monk didn't pursue. Was the monk also injured, or did Kau just use his superior hing gung to ditch the monk?

probably because QQR was superior in hing gung besides there's no point chasing after him using energy when he knew that QQR would die of the injuries.

[Ken Cheng]

As I said, in some pursuits 1% is enough to guarantee a victory while in something like fighting the amount you need to be superior to guarantee a victory is not quantifiable.

Nope. Not buying. Guarantees are for death and taxes. In any human endeavor wherein error is possible (e.g. pretty much all of them), there is no guarantee of anything...only probabilities.

Yang Guo has never shown to be careless or underperform in battle

Wrong. He had an instance of this during this very battle when he believed he could use a regular sword as if it were the Heavy Iron Sword, and promptly had the sword broken by the Golden Wheel Monk's wheel when he tried that theory out. That *could* have been a fatal error, but fortunately for Yeung Gor (+ 10 Main Character Shield), it wasn't.