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Thread: End-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai vs. End-of-LOCH Gwok Jing

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Nope. Not buying. Guarantees are for death and taxes. In any human endeavor wherein error is possible (e.g. pretty much all of them), there is no guarantee of anything...only probabilities.



    Wrong. He had an instance of this during this very battle when he believed he could use a regular sword as if it were the Heavy Iron Sword, and promptly had the sword broken by the Golden Wheel Monk's wheel when he tried that theory out. That *could* have been a fatal error, but fortunately for Yeung Gor (+ 10 Main Character Shield), it wasn't.
    I figured we were civil enough to use guarantee loosely, but if you want to be a semantics queen then you are correct. If anyone ever asks you if Xiao Feng can beat Qiu Chuji, I hope you remember to say that he is only highly probable to do so, and not guaranteed.

    That mistake by Yang Guo was hardly as big as you make it to be. He knocked GWM's wheels away and both were stunned by each other, nobody got an upperhand in that clash. He has a sword in his hand, what should he do except use it to strike the other person? It's not really his fault that the other person is just as powerful as he is. I hardly consider it being careless or underperforming when he was not put at any disadvantage at all.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I figured we were civil enough to use guarantee loosely, but if you want to be a semantics queen then you are correct. If anyone ever asks you if Xiao Feng can beat Qiu Chuji, I hope you remember to say that he is only highly probable to do so, and not guaranteed.
    That's precisely true, though. Even the Janitor Monk isn't *guaranteed* to beat Yeung Teet Sum. It's extremely probable that the Janitor Monk will win, but not guaranteed.

    Don't forget what a six-year-old, untrained Gwok Jing did to Chan Yeun Fung. We've seen it happen.

    The closer two fighters are in level, the more that probability shrinks.

    That mistake by Yang Guo was hardly as big as you make it to be. He knocked GWM's wheels away and both were stunned by each other, nobody got an upperhand in that clash. He has a sword in his hand, what should he do except use it to strike the other person? It's not really his fault that the other person is just as powerful as he is. I hardly consider it being careless or underperforming when he was not put at any disadvantage at all.
    He had a sword that was functional before the clash, and he had a broken one that was useless after the clash. That's certainly a disadvantage.

    His goal was to use that sword to defeat the Golden Wheel Monk. He failed to do that. Any way you look at it, that was a -1 for Yeung Gor.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That's precisely true, though. Even the Janitor Monk isn't *guaranteed* to beat Yeung Teet Sum. It's extremely probable that the Janitor Monk will win, but not guaranteed.

    Don't forget what a six-year-old, untrained Gwok Jing did to Chan Yeun Fung. We've seen it happen.

    The closer two fighters are in level, the more that probability shrinks.



    He had a sword that was functional before the clash, and he had a broken one that was useless after the clash. That's certainly a disadvantage.

    His goal was to use that sword to defeat the Golden Wheel Monk. He failed to do that. Any way you look at it, that was a -1 for Yeung Gor.
    Nitpicking about the word guarantee is annoying only because it defeats the purpose of the word guarantee. If you want to use probability and statistics, then the word guarantee is completely useless but I am certain you have used that word before, probably for the same reason I just used it: it is convenient and universally accepted as to what it implies. We all understand what guarantee is supposed to mean, no need to be correct about it all of a sudden and add semantics to the discussion.

    It was not a disadvantage because he removed the opponents weapon also. If he thinks he is better fighting barehanded than GWM is fighting barehanded relative fighting to with weapons, it actually puts him at an advantage. I am not arguing that point, but it is hardly as absolute as you make it out to be.
    Last edited by tape; 12-14-10 at 08:10 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Nitpicking about the word guarantee is annoying only because it defeats the purpose of the word guarantee. If you want to use probability and statistics, then the word guarantee is completely useless but I am certain you have used that word before. We all understand what guarantee is supposed to mean, no need to be correct about it all of a sudden and add semantics to the discussion.
    Words are the bread-and-butter of my profession, and if there's one thing that we both learn and teach in our business, it's that words are very precise tools and must be used with care. The careless use of words leads to misrepresentation and in some cases, even obfuscation, and these generally do not lead to effective or satisfying discussion.

    I can let you slide on something such as, "the Janitor Monk is guaranteed to defeat Yeung Teet Sum," even though that isn't strictly true, because the difference between them is big enough to likely be of little consequence, but Great vs. Great in ROCH? No, I'm afraid the margins are much too close to permit that kind of carelessness with language.

    It was not a disadvantage because he removed the opponents weapon also. If he thinks he is better fighting barehanded than GWM is fighting barehanded relative fighting to with weapons, it actually puts him at an advantage. I am not arguing that point, but it is hardly as absolute as you make it out to be.
    It was still a mistake, though, because Yeung Gor's planned objective was not achieved with that action. As it turned out, things worked out for him anyway, but that doesn't negate the fact that it was an error.

    And so it proves that Yeung Gor is human and can screw up just like the rest of them; is that really *so* bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Words are the bread-and-butter of my profession, and if there's one thing that we both learn and teach in our business, it's that words are very precise tools and must be used with care. The careless use of words leads to misrepresentation and in some cases, even obfuscation, and these generally do not lead to effective or satisfying discussion.

    I can let you slide on something such as, "the Janitor Monk is guaranteed to defeat Yeung Teet Sum," even though that isn't strictly true, because the difference between them is big enough to likely be of little consequence, but Great vs. Great in ROCH? No, I'm afraid the margins are much too close to permit that kind of carelessness with language.



    It was still a mistake, though, because Yeung Gor's planned objective was not achieved with that action. As it turned out, things worked out for him anyway, but that doesn't negate the fact that it was an error.

    And so it proves that Yeung Gor is human and can screw up just like the rest of them; is that really *so* bad?
    Well the problem is I never used the word guarantee in that context; I always said 80-90% was the feeling I got. I likened guarantee to someone being stronger always winning in a weight lifting competition.

    I have no problem with Yang Guo screwing up, he's screwed up many times in the novel. I am just not conceding that what he did in the fight construed as a screwup.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well the problem is I never used the word guarantee in that context.
    "Guarantee" doesn't really have degrees, tape (unless one is a used-car salesman). There's only one honest use of the word and that's that what is being "guaranteed" will absolutely come to fruition.

    ...which generally means that most people use the word much too cavalierly. Eventually, that just bastardizes a word and robs it of its credibility, and words are of no value if they've lost their credibility.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    "Guarantee" doesn't really have degrees, tape (unless one is a used-car salesman). There's only one honest use of the word and that's that what is being "guaranteed" will absolutely come to fruition.

    ...which generally means that most people use the word much too cavalierly. Eventually, that just bastardizes a word and robs it of its credibility, and words are of no value if they've lost their credibility.
    I said I never said I guaranteed Yang Guo would win, I always gave a percentage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    There would have been better ways to phrase it, but in a duel to the death YG would win 100% of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I said I never said I guaranteed Yang Guo would win, I always gave a percentage.
    You did not use the specific word "guarantee," but isn't your previous statement, in effect, the same thing?

    What is the salient difference between "guarantee" and "100%?"

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    You did not use the specific word "guarantee," but isn't your previous statement, in effect, the same thing?

    What is the salient difference between "guarantee" and "100%?"
    And later posts have me correcting my statement already, which you no doubt read. Do you need me to do a search on when you use the word guarantee incorrectly?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    And later posts have me correcting my statement already, which you no doubt read. Do you need me to do a search on when you use the word guarantee incorrectly?
    You won't find much, for two reasons.

    1. I'm not one to throw the word "guarantee" around carelessly.

    2. The search hasn't been functioning well since the forum reboot last month. Presently, you can't find much between 2004 and last month.

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