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Thread: End-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai vs. End-of-LOCH Gwok Jing

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default End-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai vs. End-of-LOCH Gwok Jing

    By the end of ROCH, Yeh Lut Chai had already mastered a number of his father-in-law Gwok Jing's martial arts, including Hong Lung 18 Palms and Cheun Jen Sect's techniques. Not really known, however, is whether Yeh Lut Chai learned anything of the 9 Yum Jen Ging or the Left/Right Hand Technique, which were two more of Gwok Jing's skills.

    Still, by the end of ROCH, Yeh Lut Chai was the best fighter in wulin under forty not named Yeung Gor. Do you think that by that point, Yeh Lut Chai had reached or surpassed the level that Gwok Jing had reached at the end of LOCH when he fought two Greats up to 300 strokes each at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament?

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    For some reason, I can imagine Yelu fighting End-of-LOCH Guo Jing to a draw, but I can't imagine Yelu being able to take anywhere near 300 (or even 100 stances) from a LOCH Great.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Not even close. Maybe 1/2 to 1/3 of the way there.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    nah that guy didn't possess any extraordinary talent whatsoever. he had all the best martial arts ROCH has to offer still he was a nobody in terms of MA. Fok Du beat him quite easily...

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Yeh Lut Chai wasn't super talented, it's true, but he only lost that fight because Fok Do cheated.

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Yeah, but still there were a many fighters in ROCH that could beat him easily. Gong Sun Zhi beat him like an ant and one wouldn't expect that from someone of his background. By the end of ROCH among his generation people will only look up to the great condor hero and look at him as a lucky fella that got to marry GJ & WY's daughter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    Yeah, but still there were a many fighters in ROCH that could beat him easily. Gong Sun Zhi beat him like an ant and one wouldn't expect that from someone of his background. By the end of ROCH among his generation people will only look up to the great condor hero and look at him as a lucky fella that got to marry GJ & WY's daughter
    Gung Sheun Tze beat Yeh Lut Chai when YLC was still young and relatively weak. By the end of ROCH, YLC was among the top under-forty fighters (maybe even the best other than Yeung Gor). He was no pushover.

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    Not even close IMO

    Didn't end of LOCH GJ can handle a hundred stances from LOCH greats?

    I really don't see YLC lasting more than 5 stances from any greats, granted ROCH greats are stronger, but still.

    He might be best under 40 excluding YG, but it is a very, very distant second.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimeron View Post
    Not even close IMO

    Didn't end of LOCH GJ can handle a hundred stances from LOCH greats?

    I really don't see YLC lasting more than 5 stances from any greats, granted ROCH greats are stronger, but still.
    I think there might be a credible comparability between the levels of end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing and end-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai because, depending on what you believe, the end-of-ROCH Greats were twice to four times more powerful than the end-of-LOCH Greats (because of that line about the Golden Wheel Monk doubling his inner power during the 16-year interlude in ROCH), and Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH was only about 70% of the end-of-LOCH Greats, meaning that end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing would be only 35% of an end-of-ROCH Great or even 17.5% of an end-of-ROCH Great. To me, 17.5% of an end-of-ROCH Great isn't unbelievable for end-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think there might be a credible comparability between the levels of end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing and end-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai because, depending on what you believe, the end-of-ROCH Greats were twice to four times more powerful than the end-of-LOCH Greats (because of that line about the Golden Wheel Monk doubling his inner power during the 16-year interlude in ROCH), and Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH was only about 70% of the end-of-LOCH Greats, meaning that end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing would be only 35% of an end-of-ROCH Great or even 17.5% of an end-of-ROCH Great. To me, 17.5% of an end-of-ROCH Great isn't unbelievable for end-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai.
    LOL, I think we should loosely interpret that line about GWM doubling his power. There's no way LOCH Greats are only 17.5% of a ROCH Great. Most likely they were 70-80%.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    LOL, I think we should loosely interpret that line about GWM doubling his power. There's no way LOCH Greats are only 17.5% of a ROCH Great. Most likely they were 70-80%.
    Frankly, if you leave aside GWM and his amazing doubling pachyderm skill, and look at how JY described their abilities, I got the impression that an LOCH Great would probably still be fighting an ROCH Great after 1000 stances.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Frankly, if you leave aside GWM and his amazing doubling pachyderm skill, and look at how JY described their abilities, I got the impression that an LOCH Great would probably still be fighting an ROCH Great after 1000 stances.
    That's what I've always preferred to believe myself...that there isn't *that* much a difference between an LOCH Great and an ROCH Great, and that by the end of LOCH, the elder Greats had already attained 90% of the martial arts ability that they would ever attain during their lifetimes. On the other hand, Jin Yong *did* indeed write that the Golden Wheel Monk doubled his power during the sixteen year interlude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That's what I've always preferred to believe myself...that there isn't *that* much a difference between an LOCH Great and an ROCH Great, and that by the end of LOCH, the elder Greats had already attained 90% of the martial arts ability that they would ever attain during their lifetimes. On the other hand, Jin Yong *did* indeed write that the Golden Wheel Monk doubled his power during the sixteen year interlude.
    He wrote a lot of things loosely ("peak of perfection", etc), so we should interpret them loosely too.

    This is coming from me, the Champion of Taking Words Literally, so you know I really mean it!
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Frankly, if you leave aside GWM and his amazing doubling pachyderm skill, and look at how JY described their abilities, I got the impression that an LOCH Great would probably still be fighting an ROCH Great after 1000 stances.
    Well if you just use description of abilities instead of benchmark author quotes like that, you really can't tell the difference between random scrub and Great at some times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well if you just use description of abilities instead of benchmark author quotes like that, you really can't tell the difference between random scrub and Great at some times.
    Oh sure, if you try to use plain comparison of abilities like Qiu Chuiji's lifting ability, Xiang Wentian's floor stomping, Yue Buqun's Energy transmission, SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan's throwing ability and voice transmission etc etc, you would get totally confused about the relative standing of the Greats/Elites and middle tier fighters.

    But what I was referring to was the 'feeling' I get about what JY intended. Given his tendency to describe martial arts progress for so many characters, the lack of concrete references about the Great's improvements (ignoring Golden Doubling Monk) from LOCH to ROCH just gives me the vibe that JY never really intended them to be significantly better (if at all) in ROCH.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    There are lines of Hong Qigong at least thinking he improved a lot from LOCH to ROCH, and since they improved from pre-LOCH to LOCH also I assume they just always improve. There aren't many characters that seem to regress in martial arts (maybe endurance and stamina but not martial arts).

    I think the problem with ignoring those statements is that JY simply has no concrete references to show us, at least within the scope of LOCH/ROCH how they've improved. They don't really do X feet LDA abilities, or leap X amount of feet where we can compare how much they improved through performances. They already move in blurs and instakill any non Great -- there isn't a lot more JY can make them do to show us they got better.

    But I do agree with your 'feelings' point in that generally we can pinpoint the level of a character as JY intended. All that wuxiamath is fun and games, but in the end our feelings will probably be closer to what JY intended for his world.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Plus you get things like fighters who were about on par with the QCJ being absolutely toyed with by the Greats in LOCH. I'm thinking about the part where HYS, OYF and ZBT all catch and render completely helpless one of the Jin flunkies. It takes a serious level of domination to catch an opponent by the throat, turned upside-down and exert so much power that the opponent can't even move.

    Except for when they fight other Greats or near-Greats, the domination displayed by Greats in LOCH/ROCH is stunning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post

    Except for when they fight other Greats or near-Greats, the domination displayed by Greats in LOCH/ROCH is stunning.
    Perhaps too much. I think it's a bit ridiculous the next level of people down from them can all be one hit KO'd more or less.

    I think it works better in the LOCH/ROCH world because the wulin world isn't really explored. It's pretty much just the Greats and other random people Guo Jing somehow associates himself with. I guess there can be some unknowns out there that are like 60% of a Great.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Plus you get things like fighters who were about on par with the QCJ being absolutely toyed with by the Greats in LOCH. I'm thinking about the part where HYS, OYF and ZBT all catch and render completely helpless one of the Jin flunkies. It takes a serious level of domination to catch an opponent by the throat, turned upside-down and exert so much power that the opponent can't even move.

    Except for when they fight other Greats or near-Greats, the domination displayed by Greats in LOCH/ROCH is stunning.
    The same is true in the Gu Long universe. How many times has a swordsman's skill been described in almost supernatural terms by Gu Long, who looks glorious until his sword blade his caught between Luk Siu Fung's fingers...or worse, Sai Mun Chui Sheut's sword point or Lee Chum Foon's dagger has penetrated his throat?

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    I have less of a problem with how dominating GL characters are because that's the way his writing style is. Even amongst equals or near equals, a mistake can lead to a one hit KO which is pretty exciting and realistic. In the JY world, amongst near equals, you always get a long fight sequence. The Greats will always beat non Greats in like one move, and Greats that fight each other will always last for hundreds of stances/be separated by a hair's breadth etc. It's a tad predictable and formulaic; at the least GL seems to have different gears in fight descriptions.

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