Is "Founder's Fist" really that inferior a skill?

[ChronoReverse]

Perhaps you're missing how the Greats are the only ones that are at this level? And that they also utterly curbstomp the rest of wulin?

Everyone with similar understanding in XAJH couldn't be curbstomped by LHC. Even CX was barely edged out by LHC and he's the weakest of the elite echelon in XAJH.

I don't even see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that the overall level of martial arts in XAJH is rather low when the situation is the same in LOCH/ROCH

[tape]

Perhaps you're missing how the Greats are the only ones that are at this level? And that they also utterly curbstomp the rest of wulin?

Everyone with similar understanding in XAJH couldn't be curbstomped by LHC. Even CX was barely edged out by LHC and he's the weakest of the elite echelon in XAJH.

I don't even see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that the overall level of martial arts in XAJH is rather low when the situation is the same in LOCH/ROCH

You didn't reply to the part of the post that mattered, which is the discussion of technique even in formlessness.

And the difference between the Greats and LHC is the Greats also had like 10x the inner power as well as 10x the technique which is why they stomped everyone. LHC stomped people with a month or two of learning Dugu 9 Jian. Hardly comparable.

[ChronoReverse]

I've already mentioned how when you embroach on formlessness, you still have your base techniques. But as you get better and better, more and more of the base technique is left behind. You seem to think these new moves are weaker but that point is that they aren't. Formlessness doesn't substitute something weaker for the sake of formlessness. That's why the base techniques are still used until the sword understanding exceeds it. I keep telling you to reread LHC's progression in Chapter 10: Sword Training but you still haven't.


And it's not like LHC was curbstomping everyone the moment he learned DG9J. He dominated the low level fighters for sure, but even against mid-lows like the Sword-Branch headmaster, he was only par and gradually became better. His fight against the manor mid-lows also reflected this as he was only better because it was a duel of technique.

Then he gets to fight in a completely safe manner using only technique against RWX, the one with sword skills below only that of FCY and internal energy below only FZ and DFBB. Is it any surprise that LHC, while he couldn't overcome RWX, manages to jumpstart his technique to monster levels?

After this point, LHC acquires XXDF and has internal energy at the mid-high level. Coupled with trans-Great class technique, why is it even surprising he can dominate all but the elites (which he's still only on par with at best)?


Compare this to young GJ in LOCH. He had strong internal energy for his age but it wasn't even QCJ class yet when GJ learned the full set of XL18P. Yet at this point GJ already can beat out OYK who in turn was able to beat out any of the top three QZ masters one on one. GJ was also able to dominate any of the Jin flukies at this point as well. If he had to fight the QZ disciples, do you not think he could end it in a flash if he display killer instinct even if there were a dozen of them? This is before he even acquired 9 Yin and had it explained and translated for him to train in.

[tape]

I've already mentioned how when you embroach on formlessness, you still have your base techniques. But as you get better and better, more and more of the base technique is left behind. You seem to think these new moves are weaker but that point is that they aren't. Formlessness doesn't substitute something weaker for the sake of formlessness. That's why the base techniques are still used until the sword understanding exceeds it. I keep telling you to reread LHC's progression in Chapter 10: Sword Training but you still haven't.


And it's not like LHC was curbstomping everyone the moment he learned DG9J. He dominated the low level fighters for sure, but even against mid-lows like the Sword-Branch headmaster, he was only par and gradually became better. His fight against the manor mid-lows also reflected this as he was only better because it was a duel of technique.

Then he gets to fight in a completely safe manner using only technique against RWX, the one with sword skills below only that of FCY and internal energy below only FZ and DFBB. Is it any surprise that LHC, while he couldn't overcome RWX, manages to jumpstart his technique to monster levels?

After this point, LHC acquires XXDF and has internal energy at the mid-high level. Coupled with trans-Great class technique, why is it even surprising he can dominate all but the elites (which he's still only on par with at best)?


Compare this to young GJ in LOCH. He had strong internal energy for his age but it wasn't even QCJ class yet when GJ learned the full set of XL18P. Yet at this point GJ already can beat out OYK who in turn was able to beat out any of the top three QZ masters one on one. GJ was also able to dominate any of the Jin flukies at this point as well. If he had to fight the QZ disciples, do you not think he could end it in a flash if he display killer instinct even if there were a dozen of them? This is before he even acquired 9 Yin and had it explained and translated for him to train in.

I don't need to reread the chapter, because my theory is obviously not within that chapter. I have presented counter evidence in the form of direct lines from LOCH. You are only using XAJH as your reference, and the words of FQY you are treating as truth, whereas the Greats from LOCH/ROCH who are at least as knowledgeable, have shown to take another path. DG9J sounds nice, is easy to understand, and has shown to work which is why you are clinging to this formless is the end all bit.

The quotes I've given show that the Greats created hundreds of stances on the fly, each with tens of thousands of variations, to take advantage of the person they're fighting. That is as good as Dugu 9 Jian has shown itself to be. But when the going got rough, they went back to their formed techniques, which has variation and flaws, but proved to be stronger for whatever reason. They FOUGHT formlessly, but their stances and moves were still in accordance with the basic form of 18 Dragon Palms, or Toad stance. You can argue that they are low level in terms of martial arts understanding or whatever, but there is nothing to suggest that whatsoever. It is a fact that they have achieved formless, but have decided to use form and technique as the basis of their fight rather than their formless moves.

Edit: As much as we are arguing, I am having lots of fun doing so and I hope you are too on your end. It's quite fun to play a game of starcraft, and have a new post to respond to before I go lose again

[Dirt]

I always figured the Greats fell back onto their main martial arts because it is only through those martial arts that their internal energies can find it's greatest and strongest expression.

[ChronoReverse]

That's why I mentioned how a formless variation isn't weaker and also incorporates the base technique. It's also is why I mentioned the "move intent". The very fact the two LOCH Greats discarded their base moves entirely for a bit shows how they've touched on the level of formlessness but haven't moved deep into it since they weren't able to truly execute the base moves without the form much less execute freely while unleashing greater and greater techniques.


With that said, and it's with great reluctance I use this because KC is probably going to threadcrap, we have the example of YG's HIS technique which is also a limited formlessness (limited because it can't execute as freely due to the required weapon).

Surely QQR in ROCH is at least LOCH OYF and H7G's level but even pre-16 years YG is able to fight and beat him. YG's internal energy at this point is extremely strong but still not yet Greats class (as the pure internal energy duel with GWM later proves). YG had the advantage of weaponry over QQR but QQR had internal energy advantage. While not quite canceling out the remaining factor is technique of which the whole Dugu section was meant to imply that it was at least a half level above even the Greats' techniques.

I always figured the Greats fell back onto their main martial arts because it is only through those martial arts that their internal energies can find it's greatest and strongest expression.

I don't disagree but I also feel it's also because the Greats were still more comfortable using their best technique since their comprehension isn't to the level where the moves they come up with are necessarily better. But that's the progression that it's supposed to take. If you're more comfortable using your best martial arts, you still use them when they go with the flow. It's just that the forms are used less and less as the comprehension increases. But you can't force out a formless move either until you make it a better move.

Even LHC is mostly using the base DG9J with Huashan arts as he has yet to achieve the measure of formlessness. Again Chapter 10: Sword Training talks all about this. Including the part about using your existing techniques if they're most comfortable.

[tape]

I think it is your interpretation, because I don't think there's anything that suggests that the Greats have not moved into formlessness as deeply as LHC has. You're interpreting the fallback to Dragon Palms and Toad Stance as them not mastering formless, but I think that they have mastered it and are incorporating technique back into it.

The 18 Dragon Palms has exactly that -- 18 palms. Yet when Guo Jing watches Hong Qigong fight, he realizes that Hong uses then with infinite variation. He is using a technique, but he is using it formlessly. Anyone that watches him will know it is 18 Dragon Palms, yet the way he uses it is at the highest level. He is using a existing technique formlessly, because it is more powerful than just going with the flow and attacking the opponents' weak points.

The Greats fight to me seems exactly how Dugu 9 Jian practitioners would fight. They are throwing out moves and countering each other, hoping that one reacts wrong and they can take the fight. That did not happen, so they went deeper and deeper, and demonstrated their most powerful ability -- which is fighting formlessly with what they consider to be perfect technique.

The Yang Guo example works because arguably, Yang Guo is not a swordsman despite using a sword. He has comprehended a higher level of martial arts but not in traditional swordsmanship. I remember the theory of DG9J --> HIS --> Wooden Sword --> No Sword, which I am currently subscribing to.

[ChronoReverse]

It's always interesting how DG9J is made out to be Dugu's first form when it makes no sense as such since DG9J itself is meant to move to formlessness.

Furthermore, Dugu's own inscription has the progression: Sharp Sword => Flexible Sword => Heavy Sword => Wooden Sword => No Sword (explicitly stated to be formlessness).

DG9J itself doesn't even fit into any of these categories! It's more likely another creation that leads the to ultimate goal of complete formlessness providing a strong base to springboard off of (although DG9J isn't formlessness at all).

Anyone that watches him will know it is 18 Dragon Palms, yet the way he uses it is at the highest level. He is using a existing technique formlessly, because it is more powerful than just going with the flow and attacking the opponents' weak points.

This is why I consider it to be only touching on formlessness. FCY already talked about how high (but not elite) level fighters utilize their technique in a free and non-rigid manner far greater than those who execute rigidly or even with just little imagination and comprehension.

But true master-hands start to execute only the intention of the moves such that observers can't tell what the moves are anymore. This is a common trope found in wuxia literature existing in the works of both the prime wuxia author, GL and JY. This is where true formlessness begins.

[tape]

This is why I consider it to be only touching on formlessness. FCY already talked about how high (but not elite) level fighters utilize their technique in a free and non-rigid manner far greater than those who execute rigidly or even with just little imagination and comprehension.

But true master-hands start to execute only the intention of the moves such that observers can't tell what the moves are anymore. This is a common trope found in wuxia literature existing in the works of both the prime wuxia author, GL and JY. This is where true formlessness begins.

But they did do that in the beginning. They created innumerable stances and palms with no recognizable school or flaw. If you're going by description, it seems that they reached an extraordinarily level. Not only are they fighting formlessly, they are creating flawless moves. How can you read those lines and infer that they are only touching on formlessness? The only reason you want to infer they are is because they use 18 Dragon Palms and Toad stance later on the fight, but that can also easily mean incorporating those two arts are simply superior than to just fight formlessly.

[ChronoReverse]

First off they weren't flawless moves because they were able to break each others moves. Second of all, these are actually still stances even if they're newly created. Third, it got to the point where they had think hard for several minutes before they came up with a new move.

How is that even close to the principles of free flowing formlessness? In a serious duel who would wait for you to slowly come up with a new move? That's why when the fight got serious, H7G and OYF had to rely on their base martial arts. They didn't have the martial arts comprehension to fight that formlessly.

This is fine since they were familiar with each others' martial arts and the level of such was similar. What happens if their opponent was using the Black Star of their technique? The base technique is not usable and you won't be given time to ponder about how to deal with it. There's a reason OYF dreaded Yideng and tried sneaky ways to off him. It's also the reason why perhaps WCY's base martial arts were defeated by LCY, but WCY himself was undefeated (WCY did want to one-up LCY by having a technique that recounters though).

The ability to create moves isn't formlessness! Formlessness is the ability to adapt and react well against ever changing circumstances. Even against "weird" techniques, formlessness can respond and fight to a deadlock until the opponent runs out of moves. Your own moves will also be "weird" but they can never run out!


And I'll reiterate yet again that the moves springing up from formlessness are more powerful. If the fighter doesn't have the comprehension to send out such a move, by default they revert back to the base moves. If only base moves are available then their comprehension isn't high enough and they aren't at the level of formlessness!

[tape]

They were described as flawless moves. You can argue that it's not, but that is the description that was given. Furthermore, LHC's sword thrusts are also flawed, his opponents just weren't able to take advantage of them most of the time. A newly created stance, used only for a moment, to attack a point that seems open is formlessness. LHC randomly thursting out can be considered a stance if you freeze frame it. They are using it at that moment because it is the best move, not because they are creating stances for the future or their disciples. It is most definitely formlessness.

They exchanged 300 stances of formless fighting at lightning speed before doing the think thing. How does that prove they are not masters of formless? They want to test each other's ingenuity and martial arts talent, it is not a surprise they'll let each other try to come up with something awesome. The two Greats could fight for thousands of stances formlessly, with new moves if they wanted to, but they chose to compete with the resting and thinking method. That does not speak of their level of mastery. You can say they're old and not as fast thinkers as LHC maybe, but you can't make a commentary on their level of formless wugong.

Your last line of logic only works if what you postulate is true. I can just as easily say formless is only useful when the other person is not formless, but when both are formless, it is advantageous to use a perfectly unbreakable technique in a formless way.

[ChronoReverse]

It doesn't matter if they're described as flawless if in the very next sentence the descriptions have them breaking each others moves!

Those two people had reached the level where each and every single one of the martial arts belonging to their own family or school had no flaw whatsoever. However, they both know that no matter how fierce the stance was, the opponent would easily break it

And while they were testing each other they could come up with moves. That alone implies they're not fighting at full tilt. Once they were they both had to rely on their original martial arts!



Finally there are no unbreakable techniques! Whatever you do, there's a way around it if I know what you're doing beforehand.

If you stab at my knees, then a stab to your face will reach first. If you chop down from above, I don't have to be where you're aiming and can counter accordingly. This is true in real life and this is explicitly made out to be a truism in JY's universe. The only place you can assert this would be a universe of your conceiving but this isn't what we're discussing here.

[tape]

I don't really see how you've countered my points, but I think it's hit the point where only outsider perspectives will be meaningful.

[ChronoReverse]

It seems to me the crux of the issue is the existence of an "unbreakable stance".

If such a stance exists, then formlessness really doesn't matter. The whole idea of formlessness stems from the understanding that all stances can be broken.

[tape]

Not an unbreakable stance per se, but more of a formed technique situationally being better than formless thrusts.

[ChronoReverse]

It might be better in a single specific instance, but if it gets broken then the next move will have to come out.

What even makes it "better"? The strike not involving some specific stance will still dismember or impale just as well. Even if it's a bit faster or more powerful, what does it matter? It's not like these moves will face each other since they're not the counters for each other.

In the end it's only used for a specific circumstance out of thousands upon thousands (if not unlimited) of possibilities where the circumstance might not even crop up.

[tape]

It might be better in a single specific instance, but if it gets broken then the next move will have to come out.

What even makes it "better"? The strike not involving some specific stance will still dismember or impale just as well. Even if it's a bit faster or more powerful, what does it matter? It's not like these moves will face each other since they're not the counters for each other.

In the end it's only used for a specific circumstance out of thousands upon thousands (if not unlimited) of possibilities where the circumstance might not even crop up.

Not if its awesome like Dragon Palms. 18 palms can handle infinite variations of infinite techniques just as formless can. I don't see why you have to conclude formless is inherently superior based just on what FQY said, as the Greats have shown otherwise.

[ChronoReverse]

And yet XL18P's counterpart, the equally great Toad Skill had something it could not deal with: 1YZ combined with XTG.

Nobody in LOCH and ROCH had the counter for XL18P, but if a skill equally as good can have a black star, why should XL18P be exempt against JY's declaration that all moves can be broken? Even DBS, which H7G considers better than his XL18P was broken!

[K2Grey]

I don't think OYF broke DBS, I think he broke the individual moves of DBS. There is a difference. For example there are not that many punches in boxing, and every boxer knows various ways to defend each punch. Yet boxers do not exhibit perfect defense against one another, simply because these punches are all very good attacking techniques. That is why MMA fighters work on improving their boxing technique, or other basic techniques of striking, instead of trying to build the biggest possible offensive toolkit by training in spinning back kicks or ax kicks or whatnot.

Edit: Also, maybe we should clarify exactly what it means to break a skill. OYF and H7G broke each other's skills but that did not render XL18Z or Toad Skill useless, and when ZWJ fought the 3 Du monks he broke all the stances he was attacked with but did not thereby gain the advantage in the fight. In chess it may be that the best move leads to a kingside attack and one may play flawlessly, yet fail to win against imperfect defense simply because the original position was not winning and there is a draw margin. So if we consider breaking a move to be successfully defending against it, it may very well be that for a move to be flawless does not make it unbreakable.

[Banh Mi]

I don't think OYF broke DBS, I think he broke the individual moves of DBS. There is a difference. For example there are not that many punches in boxing, and every boxer knows various ways to defend each punch. Yet boxers do not exhibit perfect defense against one another, simply because these punches are all very good attacking techniques. That is why MMA fighters work on improving their boxing technique, or other basic techniques of striking, instead of trying to build the biggest possible offensive toolkit by training in spinning back kicks or ax kicks or whatnot.

Edit: Also, maybe we should clarify exactly what it means to break a skill. OYF and H7G broke each other's skills but that did not render XL18Z or Toad Skill useless, and when ZWJ fought the 3 Du monks he broke all the stances he was attacked with but did not thereby gain the advantage in the fight. In chess it may be that the best move leads to a kingside attack and one may play flawlessly, yet fail to win against imperfect defense simply because the original position was not winning and there is a draw margin. So if we consider breaking a move to be successfully defending against it, it may very well be that for a move to be flawless does not make it unbreakable.

Well, actually, the double leg shoot beats all boxing punches. And the sprawl beats the double leg shoot. Boxing is useless against the double leg shoot unless the fighter also knows to sprawl, in which case, his boxing will be effective once again.