Translating wuxia

[missouri.slim]

I'm just a consumer of the translations here , but I can tell you what at least one average Midwestern American reader thinks. Simple words and idoimatic expressions are not that hard to get used to and lend to the flavor of the storytelling. Shakespeare made up a good number of the words he used and never worried about the audience understanding (it's true look it up; for example, a lot of the words that begin with "un" were coined by the bard himself.) At some point in school Westerners have to read something by Shakespeare, and although he wrote in English it is as foreign foreign learning a few words here and there in a wuxia translation-- words and phrases that are used again and again. If by the end of ROCH the reader does not know what GuGu means, then that is the fault of the reader-not the translator.

That being said, I do not fault John Minford or Olivia Mok for their efforts to Westernize. Getting used to the difference between gege and xiongdi is not that different from getting used to a Chinese guy named Gully or Quad. I get the intent, but I prefer leaving these things simply transliterated, but I can deal with the translations as well.

As for footnotes: I love to know everything I can about anything I can. Footnotes are great, but scrolling around to find the reference and then scrolling back to find where you left can be a pain. I like explanations and clarifications to be in line with the text, but set off in parentheses as translator's or editor's notes. I am sure that will cause an uproar because it will interrupt someone else's reading style, but it is what I prefer. However I know my place as a consumer, and will keep looking ahead to footnotes if I must.

And really, that is the point. You will not make everybody totally happy. You should not try to because you are bound to fail. Ultimately the translations, however they proceed, draw ravenous followers. I am happy to see them posted. I just want them to keep coming.

Missouri.slim

[whiteskwirl]

I'm not a translator, but I thought these articles on Howard Goldblatt might be interesting to those here. Goldblatt is probably the most respected translator of Chinese into English.

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/books/txt...ent_108570.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

http://fulltilt.ncu.edu.tw/Content.asp?I_No=16&Period=2

[sniffles]

That being said, I do not fault John Minford or Olivia Mok for their efforts to Westernize. Getting used to the difference between gege and xiongdi is not that different from getting used to a Chinese guy named Gully or Quad. I get the intent, but I prefer leaving these things simply transliterated, but I can deal with the translations as well.

Even though I complained about Mok's translation, I'm glad she did it. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to read that book. The same goes for the translations here. I really appreciate people taking the time and effort to make those books readable for me.

I was really disappointed that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon didn't get a translation after the film did so well in the US. It's too bad that no publisher has taken on the challenge of translating more wuxia fiction. Many Americans enjoy martial arts movies. We also like fantasy stories and superheroes. Wuxia literature touches on all of these genres. I think translations of these books would sell reasonably well.

I guess I'll just have to keep plugging away at my Chinese studies and hope that maybe someday I can translate some wuxia fiction myself.

[missouri.slim]

Even though I complained about Mok's translation, I'm glad she did it. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to read that book. The same goes for the translations here. I really appreciate people taking the time and effort to make those books readable for me.

Exactly.

And if someone else translated Flying Fox, I would read it again. I would love to read different translations of the same work to see through different translator's eyes. I am looking forward to reading both Minford's Deer and Cauldron (when I can find $38/ volume that is) and Fox's translation here.

[Darkaos]

Thanks for all the inputs.

Hoping there a list of idiom one day...

[missouri.slim]

Mostly just titles and forms of address and other words indicating relationships, but here is a beginning. I had forgotten about this. I want to say there is a broader thread kicking around here somewhere, but I have not found it yet.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...nd-Translation
Here is another, but I thought I think there is still a much longer reallly old thread that I just can't find.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...erms-in-Pinyin

[sniffles]

Slightly off-topic, but my Chinese teacher just returned from visiting her family near Chengdu, and she brought me a copy of 射雕英雄传 (that's Legend of the Condor Heroes / Eagle-Shooting Heroes)! It's only Volume 2 (it's usually published in 4 volumes), but I'm still thrilled. I was so happy when I opened it and realized I could recognize a few proper names, like Mei Chaofeng 梅超风.

I had felt that I wouldn't be able to read much because I don't know that many characters. But while I won't be breezing through it, I can read more than I thought I could.

[forgot password]

I beg to differ, at least on one account. You see, as I mentioned earlier, neither English nor Chinese was my first language, i.e. I had to learn the language before I could use it. It always fascinates me to learn different expression people use to describe simple phrase. 'Fit as a fiddle', 'sick as a dog' ... Although I do not play fiddle, I've been around fiddles for quite a while when I was in the orchestra, yet I cannot tell whether a certain fiddle is fit or not (all I can tell is whether it is in tune or not). I used to own several dogs, but I have never seen them sick. So to me, those expressions are amusing, albeit do not make any sense.

Back to wuxia translation: I find ‘bashful flower obstructing the moon’ is more fascinating than a simple 'beautiful', same thing with ‘sweeping away a thousand army’ against 'total annihilation'. And I want to share these expressions in their original language to my readers. Who knows? Perhaps like me, they'd like to know too.

Do you think I am a freak for being fascinated by those expressions? Or actually nobody cares so I might as well use the simplified, common English expressions? But then again, in the special case of Deer and Cauldron, Minford has already done that. And the main reason I re-translate the story is precisely that. An spcnet member was kind enough to send me an electronic copy of his work, but comparing his work with Jin Yong's original, I found most, if not all, of these 'special expressions' are lost. I mean, come on, 'By my plight and troth!'? (The original was 'A real man gave his words, a team of four horses cannot chase it'.)

Sort of a literalist myself, I agree with you in general, sir foxs.

My criteria in translating in order of priority are: Original Meaning > Literalness > Original Style > Time Saving > Readability. So, while I always strive to translate expressions such as 'tweak the tiger's whiskers' and 'dragon's lair and tiger's den' as literally as possible, I've never translated '半天' as 'half a day', except when it refers to a really long, undefined period of time in the original text. For example, if 2 characters bid farewell to each other early in the morning then meet again at some point in the evening of the same day, I will use 'half a day'; however, if they ponder over something for 15 - 20 minutes, I'll translate it as 'for quite a while' or a similar expression, but never will I use the phrase 'pondering for half a day' in this circumstance because it will distort the meaning of the original text.

Also, IMO, the Style of the original text should be preserved in the translation, even though in many cases this is very hard to achieve. A lot of people actually prefer Readability to Style, esp. people who have no to little background in Chinese culture, nevertheless, I still think Style is more important. An example that springs to mind is Minford's Lu Ding Ji. It's easy to read indeed, but a lot of the original 'Chineseness' was lost. Had I not been familiar with the story before reading his translation, I wouldn't have thought that I was reading a Chinese wuxia novel. Minford also failed to keep the 'archaic air' of the original intact.

I find it tough to produce a good translation that satisfies all the criteria. For example, the first 2 sentences from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms and its 3 different translations (not really wuxia, but these translations demonstrate very well the importance of different criteria):

话说天下大势，分久必合，合久必分。周末七国分争，并入于秦。
及秦灭之后，楚汉分争，又并入于汉。

* Translation 1 (liberal and archaic) by C. H. Brewitt-Taylor: "Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. The country divided must unite, once united must divide. This has been so since antiquity. When the rule of the Zhou Dynasty weakened, seven contending kingdoms sprang up, warring one with another until the kingdom of Qin prevailed and possessed the empire. But when Qin's destiny had been fulfilled, arose two opposing kingdoms, Chu and Han, to fight for the mastery. And Han was the victor."

* Translation 2 (relatively literal) by Moss Roberts: "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divided. Thus it has ever been. In the closing years of the Zhou dynasty seven kingdoms warred among themselves until the kingdom of Qin prevailed and absorbed the other six. But Qin soon fell, and on its ruins two opposing kingdoms, Chu and Han, fought for mastery until the kingdom of Han prevailed and absorbed its rival, as Qin done before."

* Translation 3 (quite literal) by fans: "It is a general truism of this world that anything long divided will surely unite, and anything long united will surely divide. At the end of the Zhou Dynasty, seven kingdoms vied for supremacy, and became part of the Qin Dynasty. Similarly, after the Qin Dynasty was destroyed, Chu and Han vied for supremacy, and became a part of the Han Dynasty."

I myself like #1 the most, for its use of archaic, formal and literary prose while still expressing the original meaning very clearly. #2 and #3, despite being more literal, feel sort of dry and too modern compared to the tone of the original text. If I were an editor, I would try to combine #1 with #3. And if I were the translator of these 2 sentences, #1 would be the translation I hope to achieve. But it will be hard for me, because it requires a wide vocabulary, which, as a fellow with absolutely no academic background in linguistics and literature, I don't have. Ha-ha, 99% my product would be similar to #3, dry, sorta awkward and literal. P.S: I forgot to say that most of the people who can't read the original prefer Moss Roberts' translation (I mean the whole book, not just these 2 sentences).

[sniffles]

My, I can't believe how long it's been since I checked this thread. Time certainly does fly, to use an idiom. How would you translate that into Chinese?

On the reverse side of the translation question, I've recently been doing some writing for my Chinese class. For the past several years I've been working on a novel, so I decided to try translating a little bit of the story into Chinese (in a highly abridged form).

The characters in my novel live in a fantasy world that is inspired by wuxia drama. I gave them English names, but I had Chinese-style names in mind when I chose the character names. As I was translating the names into Chinese, I was delighted to discover that my main protagonist and one of the other important characters had Chinese names that were very similar in sound, although the meanings are quite different. My teacher also told me that she thought the names I had chosen sounded very romantic, which was very pleasing to me.

She's encouraging me to go on telling the story, but it's quite a challenge as it demands a lot of vocabulary and grammar that I don't know. But it's easier than I expect translating someone else's story into Chinese would be. I'm not trying to reinterpret someone else's writing.

Back to the original topic: I hope people haven't lost interest in this. It's an interesting topic and worthy of further discussion.

[junny]

My, I can't believe how long it's been since I checked this thread. Time certainly does fly, to use an idiom. How would you translate that into Chinese?

I'd just translate it simply as 时间过得真快.

Thanks for bumping the thread, sniffles. And thanks to everyone who has left feedback in this thread, your thoughts were very interesting! I'm not translating wuxia at the moment, but a children's story instead and I find all my old difficulties coming back, haha.

sniffles, do share your story (translated or otherwise) here in this forum, I think it'll be an interesting read!